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Why can we not be self policed in high security space? Who needs BOTS

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Sequester Risalo
Significant Others
#41 - 2016-08-15 08:38:42 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Wants to turn highsec into nullsec.


This simple assessment sums it up quite nicely. In what way would your system be different from Providence?

If in fact it would work exactly like Providence, you should start asking yourself why highsec has a bigger polulation. Also I wonder what would be left of highsec with your idea. You might as well argue to abolish highsec completely. That idea has been put forward frequently but you should be frank about it.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#42 - 2016-08-15 09:01:55 UTC
Giggling at yet another nerf hisec thread..., actually call that turn hisec into null sec...

The best thing to do with hisec is to allow BS and dread rats to spawn... would be great fun...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#43 - 2016-08-15 09:06:20 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Giggling at yet another nerf hisec thread..., actually call that turn hisec into null sec...

The best thing to do with hisec is to allow BS and dread rats to spawn... would be great fun...


Where is the OP asking for a nerf?

I don't agree with what he's asking for, but asking for something different, that in his eyes provides more opportunities for players is hardly a nerf.

Of course, there would be a reliance on AG to do something....ah yeah, now I understand how it's a nerf.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#44 - 2016-08-15 09:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Giggling at yet another nerf hisec thread..., actually call that turn hisec into null sec...

The best thing to do with hisec is to allow BS and dread rats to spawn... would be great fun...


Where is the OP asking for a nerf?

I don't agree with what he's asking for, but asking for something different, that in his eyes provides more opportunities for players is hardly a nerf.

Of course, there would be a reliance on AG to do something....ah yeah, now I understand how it's a nerf.


AG is an anti-ganking militia would not exist under this suggestion, it would just turn into NPC 0.0, something that I could easily handle, but a lot of players will run screaming to the de-sub button...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Solecist Project
#45 - 2016-08-15 09:43:57 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Sack o'Richards wrote:
Do you not have any faith in our community?

History has shown that a large amount of people living in High-sec are not willing to put even a token effort into self-defense.

The MoO gatecamp from the early days of EVE showed that a tankable CONCORD (see: CONCORD used to behave similar to the Faction Police) can be beaten back by a large enough force and steamroll through most player counter-strikes.

The Goonswarm Incursions (all of them) showed that a large enough force can roll through multiple corporations and Starbases at the same time.

The Hulkageddon and Burn Jita events showed that your average player is generally pretty bad at "paying attention" to current events and coming up with countermeasures that don't involve simply logging off until the dust settles.


Hell... we still have bleating masses up in arms because someone has declared war on them and are interfering with their "pacifist" lifestyle.



Sack o'Richards wrote:
Why can't CCP allow us to also police high security space? I am not saying remove high sec, you could implement something that keeps anyone under -5.0 out of 0.5's and higher, or even have it scale.

You can already do this. Set up a gatecamp at places you know -0.5 or lower players often travel through. Or escort convoys of ships. Then shoot the "outlaws" when they appear.


Sack o'Richards wrote:
Justice is a human construct, but CCP places stewardship of it in the hands of non-player characters. There is no justice there, just mechanics. Where is the human element? Human element best element? The very presence of CONCORD causes bot like behavior from players. How can anything npc decide what defines human justice.?

True enough. But players simply do not have the will, time, or reaction speed to stop all offenses or be everywhere at once.

Also... players can be bribed or bought out

This is why few "non-PvP corporations" do not trust MERC groups to defend them and would rather whine.


Sack o'Richards wrote:
We need player ran police departments in EVE, the only thing standing in our way is the redundancy that CONCORD creates. EVE is about taking control, yet we are being hamstrung by the same people that tell us to take control.

You take some, you give some.

Neither the current situation nor yours is ideal (for different respective parties). But at least the current situation is... more reliable and trustworthy for some.

the reason why this happens is because it's not the proper players who take charge of the new players.
it's because ccp teaches zero about the actual game and because carebears have too m8ch influence.

they had since i remember. Of course it's just going to get worse.
There's too many self proclaimed victims having bad influence.

make noobs assets worth fighting for and you can turn highsec into a combat zone within six months.
The people who are immune to influence and who want to be safe could just join a nullsec alliance.

Massive intel and no suicide gankers ...
... but still at least a bit of the game to shake their comfort zones once in a while.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
#46 - 2016-08-15 09:50:34 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Giggling at yet another nerf hisec thread..., actually call that turn hisec into null sec...

The best thing to do with hisec is to allow BS and dread rats to spawn... would be great fun...



So you want to turn high sec partially into null sec, but of course only the parts that give people the opportunity to make even more ISK under the protection of concord. How about you take your own advice you and other people who cry for "balance" in high sec keep giving people: "If you want XY. Get out of high sec".

On topic:

As much as I support the idea that people should protect themselves and that they should not rely on some magic space police to do it for them, it´s never going to happen.

They do not protect themselves now, allthough right now it is easy to protect themselves from high sec. How often have people tried in these very forums to explain to people, how to protect themselves properly? Just ask people who complain about being ganked, why they did not have scouts, logi support, links or a webber to reduce the chances to get ganked.

Every time you will get the response that their friends and/or corpmates are not interested in such boring tasks and that they would rather farm ISK than helping each other out.

How often do they claim that it does not hurt the gankers if you kill them, just because they only see the value of the ships losses and can not see that a lot of gankers will lose interest when their ganks are being prevented over and over again.

Sure you can just be ignorant and say: "So what if the real carebears leave?" Sadly CCP did a very fine job over the last year to attract more of those people and they would all just quit and right now I don´t think ccp is interested in any group of remaining players unsubbing on masse.
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#47 - 2016-08-15 09:57:57 UTC
Sack o'Richards wrote:
So that's the deal. I think we, the playerbase, have the ability AND the right to police ourselves.

There is no need for CONCORD in EVE. Players, not npcs, police everything else ingame. Why can't CCP allow us to also police high security space? I am not saying remove high sec, you could implement something that keeps anyone under -5.0 out of 0.5's and higher, or even have it scale. Factional Warfare could cover high sec also. And yes, we need starter systems.
I understand the need for a certain ammount of 'security' for newbros, but please don't make us slaves to the machines any longer!

Justice is a human construct, but CCP places stewardship of it in the hands of non-player characters. There is no justice there, just mechanics. Where is the human element? Human element best element? The very presence of CONCORD causes bot like behavior from players. How can anything npc decide what defines human justice.?

Are we not worthy CCP?

Do you not have any faith in our community?

We need player ran police departments in EVE, the only thing standing in our way is the redundancy that CONCORD creates. EVE is about taking control, yet we are being hamstrung by the same people that tell us to take control.

EVE is hard huh? Prove it. Let us, the players, decide what's wrong and what's right in our communities.

Who's with me? Who wants to play in a real sandbox?


Even if it was feasible for us as players to constantly keep up even a fraction of the response times and coverage that Concord provides (Which it isn't) and there was enough of a reward to make policing a career (There won't be because any system could be blatantly gamed) the bottom line is that EvE players can't be trusted, period.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2016-08-15 10:07:19 UTC
Sack o'Richards wrote:
Why can we not be self policed in high security space?


Because M0o happened.
Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#49 - 2016-08-15 10:23:39 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
OP - I love BS. And, you stacked it so high! Why can't the fox be trusted to guard the chicken coop? Why do they have to put all the bank money in vaults? Why do they have the tire puncher rack at the parking garage exits? LET ME SEE......Pens chained down...motel TV locks...leave your passport at the desk...walk through the metal detector....aw gee. The honor system? This one's too easy. "TRUST" an EVE player??? I need to get my coffee. Allow me to take a break from rolling on the floor...laughing.

ROFLCOPTER

You had to ask.



Things must be going pretty slow over at C&P.
BTW op, we already have a mechanism for that. It's called SUSPECT TIMER.
F1 away.

Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#50 - 2016-08-15 10:29:55 UTC
Jessica Starblaze wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Giggling at yet another nerf hisec thread..., actually call that turn hisec into null sec...

The best thing to do with hisec is to allow BS and dread rats to spawn... would be great fun...



So you want to turn high sec partially into null sec, but of course only the parts that give people the opportunity to make even more ISK under the protection of concord. How about you take your own advice you and other people who cry for "balance" in high sec keep giving people: "If you want XY. Get out of high sec".

On topic:

As much as I support the idea that people should protect themselves and that they should not rely on some magic space police to do it for them, it´s never going to happen.

They do not protect themselves now, allthough right now it is easy to protect themselves from high sec. How often have people tried in these very forums to explain to people, how to protect themselves properly? Just ask people who complain about being ganked, why they did not have scouts, logi support, links or a webber to reduce the chances to get ganked.

Every time you will get the response that their friends and/or corpmates are not interested in such boring tasks and that they would rather farm ISK than helping each other out.

How often do they claim that it does not hurt the gankers if you kill them, just because they only see the value of the ships losses and can not see that a lot of gankers will lose interest when their ganks are being prevented over and over again.

Sure you can just be ignorant and say: "So what if the real carebears leave?" Sadly CCP did a very fine job over the last year to attract more of those people and they would all just quit and right now I don´t think ccp is interested in any group of remaining players unsubbing on masse.


Total rubbish, you should go and do Anti Ganking and you would soon realise just how hollow your words are, the only activity that was akin to ganking with small fast ships difficult to stop and catch was to come in and gank the wreck and as soon as we started doing it it was changed so we could not. That one action by CCP says it all in terms of CCP's lack of balance and understanding, to remove a fun part of the game from AG and then give us a buff to freighter EHP as balance was quite frankly insulting, here plebs continue to be saps for the gankers fun...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
#51 - 2016-08-15 11:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Starblaze
Dracvlad wrote:


Total rubbish, you should go and do Anti Ganking and you would soon realise just how hollow your words are, the only activity that was akin to ganking with small fast ships difficult to stop and catch was to come in and gank the wreck and as soon as we started doing it it was changed so we could not. That one action by CCP says it all in terms of CCP's lack of balance and understanding, to remove a fun part of the game from AG and then give us a buff to freighter EHP as balance was quite frankly insulting, here plebs continue to be saps for the gankers fun...



Too bad for you that I have done my fair share of killing code people. The discussion is not a new one and the last time I had that discussion with someone I grabbed a fast locking Legion (+ my police kronos to add some flavour) after around 6 kills I had to switch from the Legion to a HIC for tackling though because Aaaarggg (who was the one I killed the most until he moved somehwere else) started fitting WCS. All together I got around 30 code kills in 2 days before they could gank something.

Not that I have any problem with gankers in general, I have done more than enough ganking myself over the years. I just did it to proof that it can be done.

No matter how much you want to claim the opposite, ganking can be prevented to a certain extend, Sure you can not catch them all and not in all situations, but you can fight them and deny them kills.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2016-08-15 12:02:27 UTC
The OP has wrapped this request up as an anti ganking measure. But what is he actually asking for?

. The opportunity to shoot players that commit criminal acts
. The opportunity to shoot players that commit suspect acts
. The opportunity to shoot players with -5.0 or lower sec status.

Players already have that, so what else?

. The removal of Concord

Yeah right. Pleeeese trust us CCP!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#53 - 2016-08-15 12:08:16 UTC
Jessica Starblaze wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Total rubbish, you should go and do Anti Ganking and you would soon realise just how hollow your words are, the only activity that was akin to ganking with small fast ships difficult to stop and catch was to come in and gank the wreck and as soon as we started doing it it was changed so we could not. That one action by CCP says it all in terms of CCP's lack of balance and understanding, to remove a fun part of the game from AG and then give us a buff to freighter EHP as balance was quite frankly insulting, here plebs continue to be saps for the gankers fun...



Too bad for you that I have done my fair share of killing code people. The discussion is not a new one and the last time I had that discussion with someone I grabbed a fast locking Legion (+ my police kronos to add some flavour) after around 6 kills I had to switch from the Legion to a HIC for tackling though because Aaaarggg (who was the one I killed the most until he moved somehwere else) started fitting WCS. All together I got around 30 code kills in 2 days before they could gank something.

Not that I have any problem with gankers in general, I have done more than enough ganking myself over the years. I just did it to proof that it can be done.

No matter how much you want to claim the opposite, ganking can be prevented to a certain extend, Sure you can not catch them all and not in all situations, but you can fight them and deny them kills.


Well shooting Aaaaarg is not exactly difficult, I have a fair few kills on him, no I am talking about dealing with freighter ganks and preventing ganks on mining barges, did you try that? We have denied them freighter kills but it is not easy, you should go and try that then report back on it. Killing someone in an instra locking tharasher is easy.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#54 - 2016-08-15 12:08:35 UTC
Sack o'Richards wrote:
Not even close friend. There is opportunity for much isk to be made by the humam police forces in high security space. Plus the option for 'police only' mods and access to pursuit type hulls that can bridge into systems they police.


How could this not be good?

Sign me up.

You can deliver the fully fit concord battleship to my hangar any time you want me to start.

I promise not to abuse my newfound EVE super-powers, nor my lack of accountability to anybody.

o7


PS: Existing in high-sec has now been deemed to be illegal. If I find any of you there, I'm afraid I'll have to enforce your criminal timers for violating my law. High-sec access permits can be purchased by individuals for 100 million isk per week - or 1 billion isk per week for a corporation/alliance that wants a group discount.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Solecist Project
#55 - 2016-08-15 12:22:41 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Sack o'Richards wrote:
Not even close friend. There is opportunity for much isk to be made by the humam police forces in high security space. Plus the option for 'police only' mods and access to pursuit type hulls that can bridge into systems they police.


How could this not be good?

Sign me up.

You can deliver the fully fit concord battleship to my hangar any time you want me to start.

I promise not to abuse my newfound EVE super-powers, nor my lack of accountability to anybody.

o7


PS: Existing in high-sec has now been deemed to be illegal. If I find any of you there, I'm afraid I'll have to enforce your criminal timers for violating my law. High-sec access permits can be purchased by individuals for 100 million isk per week - or 1 billion isk per week for a corporation/alliance that wants a group discount.

I, for one, would welcome our new police overlords.

I never minded the faction police.
I never minded the dozens at the undock.

This would be no different, but it would give self righteous ones (ewww) something to do.

Of course not with CONCORDlike powers.
Of course not with instant teleportation.
Playing CONCORD would be too much instant gratification ...
... and would in those who really want that job only expose their true natures pretty quickly.

Butby letting them sit guard in systems, at stations and gates... that would be pretty good!
Patrolling space! Talking in local!



Oh hey, snap, they could do that already!


Damn...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jessica Starblaze
Rookie Help
#56 - 2016-08-15 12:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Starblaze
Dracvlad wrote:


Well shooting Aaaaarg is not exactly difficult, I have a fair few kills on him, no I am talking about dealing with freighter ganks and preventing ganks on mining barges, did you try that? We have denied them freighter kills but it is not easy, you should go and try that then report back on it. Killing someone in an instra locking tharasher is easy.


Nobody said it was easy, but at least you finally admit that it can be done. If you expect that it can be done with any less effort and organisation than the ganking of such targets takes you quite simply have wrong expectation.

The difference is the gankers did get organised and work together to get their kills, while most of the high sec population refuses to get organised, because there are no ISK rewards in it.

In terms of preventing ganks against miners. While I was ganking my mining competion (there was a time where I was actually a quite active ice miner) once in a while I came across people who actually used the tools at their disposal to stop me from being successfull. But again that requires you to work as a team or use an alt that is not making ISK while you protect yourself and most people in high sec just refuse to do that.

Edit: I also have seen more than enough gank attempt against me fail, because I was protecting myself.

They only care about maxing out their ISK per hour and rather run to cpp to ask for changes than protecting themselves.

Also an organised fleet can kill paper thin ships that gank freighters just as easily as you can kill a gank cata or thrasher, you just have to pick the right tools for the job.
ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#57 - 2016-08-15 12:52:29 UTC
Quote:
17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.


This topic has been discussed many times before.

ISD Fractal

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
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