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What do you think CCP is planning for the barge rework?

Author
Zayden Bryant
GermanDungeonPorn
#61 - 2016-07-29 19:48:27 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:


What I'm doing is seeing if the claims that the large number of skiffs I'm seeing is a direct result of my, or other New Order Agents, presence in our habitual haunts. My evidence is anecdotal but I really did travel to multiple ice systems across highsec last night. I did see a lone Retriever in one system and two in another. So it wasn't completely skiffs. But they WAY outnumber the alternatives. Huge skiff fleets stripping the ice fields.



There is your problem. Ice fields are easy to locate, the systems are static, the belts are advertised, and the timers are easy to track. Of course the people there will be cautious.

But in ore belts, where you have to hunt through the system to find targets, you will often find every type of mining ship (except the specialized T2 frigs)
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#62 - 2016-07-30 01:35:55 UTC
When barge tiericide was implemented in 2012 the intent of the "self defense" Procurer was to have battleship-level EHP. So I doubt its tank will be nerfed.

I am hoping the Procurer gets a third low (it should have similar yield to Retriever)
I am hoping the Covetor gets increased ore hold (to be similar to the Procurer)

I think Strip Miners will take a turret hardpoint and be only fittable on Mining Barges. Then one or more of the hulls will get a utility high. Especially Procurer but maybe Retriever too.

I think the Exhumers should stay as beefed up versions of the tech 1 hulls, with an added twist: each can fit a fleet boost module to its utility high that gives all fleet members on-grid a bonus in its specialty: Mack gives bonus to ore hold, Hulk gives bonus to yield, Procurer gives bonus to shield HP.

Arianne Kass
Garoun Long-Term Capital Management
#63 - 2016-07-30 08:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arianne Kass
Procurer/Skiff with a utility highslot for a cyno: the dream of baiters and counter-baiters across EVE (except Empire, but who cares about them). And anything that leads to more pew is a good thing(tm).
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2016-07-30 18:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalido Raddi
Bing Bangboom wrote:
My point is that the trinity of mining ships is broken and I THINK CCP knows it and will do something to rebalance the situation.

There isn't really a trinity of Mining Ships.

There's the Hulk, which is for organised Fleet Mining Operations and is *excellent* at its role.

Then there's the Skiff, which has the tank to support Solo Mining - be that in NullSec vs NPC rats or HighSec vs player rats.

The Mackinaw simply doesn't have a role. The job it was intended to do, doesn't exist because of people like you.

In my view - leave the Hulk as it is, or maybe with a reduction in Mining Crystal damage, and merge the Skiff and Mackinaw into one ship - tanky with a large Ore Hold. The idea that the Mackinaw is useful for mining solo is a dead one, because of people like you who make HighSec belts more deadly than NullSec ones.


Traedar wrote:
When barge tiericide was implemented in 2012 the intent of the "self defense" Procurer was to have battleship-level EHP. So I doubt its tank will be nerfed.

I am hoping the Procurer gets a third low (it should have similar yield to Retriever)
I am hoping the Covetor gets increased ore hold (to be similar to the Procurer)

I think Strip Miners will take a turret hardpoint and be only fittable on Mining Barges. Then one or more of the hulls will get a utility high. Especially Procurer but maybe Retriever too.


The Covetor & Hulk don't really need extra Ore Hold. It's irrelevant when they are used for their real purpose - fleet mining while sitting next to a Freight Container or a ship with a Fleet Hanger that they can dump into.


I quite like the idea of a utility high on a Procurer, but I will warn you now that people will Spider Tank the hell out of that.
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#65 - 2016-08-02 22:50:05 UTC
I'd rather have new mining ships to train for beyond exhumers instead of barges getting a rework. Bigger...better ships.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#66 - 2016-08-14 20:35:17 UTC
So, 2 strip miners for all 3 barges and all 3 exhumers... Interesting. Looking forward to more details soon, given that these changes are expected next month already...

Until all are free...

Wayne Donne
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2016-08-15 01:17:10 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
I see nothing but Skiffs any more with the occasional Procurer. This is broken.

There is supposed to be a tradeoff which players use to balance their ship choices. In highsec mining there are only ignorant miners and Skiff miners.

I'd suggest a massive decrease in the built in tank of the Skiffs and Procurers with whatever CPU/slots/etc necessary to allow the miner to tank his ship back up to the battleship EHP they enjoy now. BUT their yield will be hammered.

Right now they get incredible tank, decent yield, and with a nearby station or Orca negiligible impact of a smaller ore hold.

Yes, yes. We caused this. I understand that. We broke highsec mining. Now its up to CCP to fix it.

Skiffs overpowered. Nerf Skiffs.


You realize how hard it is for anyone to take you seriously with your sig.
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2016-08-15 09:37:09 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
So, 2 strip miners for all 3 barges and all 3 exhumers... Interesting. Looking forward to more details soon, given that these changes are expected next month already...


It's certainly a major change. If we assume that the focus of each Barge/Exhumer line remains the same and that the intention is that overall capabilities do not go down, then there will have to be a big boost to either yield or cycle time for the Hulk.

What's interesting to me now is this small Mining Command Ship. It's going to be quite difficult to justify this over just putting another Barge on Grid.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2016-08-15 10:44:14 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:
Kueyen wrote:
So, 2 strip miners for all 3 barges and all 3 exhumers... Interesting. Looking forward to more details soon, given that these changes are expected next month already...


It's certainly a major change. If we assume that the focus of each Barge/Exhumer line remains the same and that the intention is that overall capabilities do not go down, then there will have to be a big boost to either yield or cycle time for the Hulk.

What's interesting to me now is this small Mining Command Ship. It's going to be quite difficult to justify this over just putting another Barge on Grid.


The way things seem to be going... the mining command ship will likely have mining capabilities itself... like the Rorqual (not as "good" obviously)

No Worries

Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2016-08-15 11:06:18 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
The way things seem to be going... the mining command ship will likely have mining capabilities itself... like the Rorqual (not as "good" obviously)

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. If it's a Drone Boat then that would also fit with the way the ORE lineup seems to be going.
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#71 - 2016-08-15 11:33:11 UTC
personal preference for me .. and speaking for myself only...

i would love to see a full line of miners... that the mining / industry side of the game recieve as much attention as other aspects of the game

we currently have :
T1/T2 mining frigates

T1/T2 mining barges/exhumers
(i see these as cruiser or battlecruiser size)

i want to see battleship sized mining ships and expansion of command industrial ships


listed below are random thoughts and ideas:

-just like T2 command battlecruisers. if fit a certain way can fit more then 3 warfare links... some how expand the slots on orca to fit more then 3 warfare links / industrial links

or

-a fleet mining command ship that provides boosts. has drones and/or guns and provides fleet defense, remote repair capabilities for the fleet, but does not have a cargo bay much to speak of... would have significantly faster target lock capabilities (lock targets about as fast as the skiff can lock targets).. basicaly i wanna see orca become something more then a 2nd or 3rd account ship that just sits there and sucks in cans

how we go about this, i have no clue, something like a Nestor, with drones and remote repair capabilities and fit industrial command links and tracktor beams with realy fast lock on time to lock and kill belt rats (damned orca takes forever to lock those targets) ... make the command links some how more interactive ... im just throwing out crazy ideas here

in short... make it more active, more interactive, interactive with the game environment and the members of the fleet

-combine the industrial fleet command ship role with the fleet defense role into one ship....

we all know that alot of players just do not want to sit around and play guard to a mining fleet
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2016-08-15 12:36:16 UTC
Well if you watched the Twitch TV thing last night you'd know that On-Grid Boosting is going to feature scriptable boosting modules, so that's a thing to consider.
Zerzzes Markarian
McCloud and Markarian Trade and Logistics Corp.
#73 - 2016-08-15 12:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zerzzes Markarian
Bing Bangboom wrote:
If CCP still wants Eve to be an interactive game of player versus player, then skiffs MUST explode more. That's what I continue to expect even if its taken far too long.


First, Eve is not a pure PVP game. And if they must explode more, just bring a bigger ship. The Skiff costs almost 200M ISK. Why should it explode when you bring only cheap ****? Otherwise, just search a bit more. If you look outside ice belts, you will find plenty of non-Skiff mining ships.
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#74 - 2016-08-15 12:55:58 UTC
i totaly missed the twitch TV thing
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#75 - 2016-08-15 13:05:28 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:


I little believe that CCP will read my well thought out arguments for a skiff nerf and decide, based on that, that mining ships with battleship tanks are unbalanced. If skiffs are changed to be less tanky out of the box, or if their yield takes a tweak downward, it will be because of the decisions of hundreds of highsec miners who have, once again, decided to remove themselves from interaction with other players. If CCP still wants Eve to be an interactive game of player versus player, then skiffs MUST explode more. That's what I continue to expect even if its taken far too long.



as it stands, i can mine useing all 3 ships

i choose to mine in a skiff. even if the area appears to be safe.. and sacrifice as much as 40% of potential income for safety.. so there is a solid tradeoff ... i trade profits for safety.... as do the vast majority of the other players

if they nurf the skiff as you suggest... what do you see the results being??

i see miners going back to doing what they did quite a few years ago... mine in a rokh or dominix... what are you going to do then when belts have fleets of battleships mineing astroids??

miners will almost always choose the safest method to mine... if you create a situation were the risk is not worth the reward... then the miners will not mine... this is bad for the economy.. very very bad ....

and im curious about your statement

Bing Bangboom wrote:
"hundreds of highsec miners who have, once again, decided to remove themselves from interaction with other players"


i mine and interact with lots of other players and find the mining community to be rather interactive with each other in the areas i operate out of.. this statement of yours i find to be false
Kalido Raddi
Crown Mineworks
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2016-08-15 13:20:06 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
i totaly missed the twitch TV thing

https://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/83622730

They talk about Boosts & Rorqual from 55mins.

The Rorqual's SuperBoost looks nice, though
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2016-08-15 13:25:10 UTC
Kalido Raddi wrote:
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
i totaly missed the twitch TV thing

https://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/83622730

They talk about Boosts & Rorqual from 55mins.

The Rorqual's SuperBoost looks nice, though


Need the dev-post really... for example... what happens if theres more than one Rorq on field?? Rorq fleets?

No Worries

Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
#78 - 2016-08-15 15:23:49 UTC
From the art clips in o7, it looks like all barges/exhumers will get 2 turrets. So I assume lots of bonus tweets to balance laser counts.
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#79 - 2016-08-16 19:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kueyen
Details (provisional, of course) on Sisi, courtesy of Reddit:

Barges and exhumers: Traits, Attributes comparison
Strip miners: Attribute comparison

If my math's correct (it wasn't at first, but these should be!), these are max-yield-fitted m³/s (rounded to 2 digits) of unboosted ships (no either) with all skills to V and with T2 modules and crystals

A) m³ per cycle
Procurer:   2924m³/c  »  1462m³/c    (-50%)
Retriever:  1593m³/c  »  1992m³/c    (+25%)
Covetor:    1170m³/c  »  1593m³/c    (+36.25%)
Skiff:      3187m³/c  »  1593m³/c    (-50%)
Mackinaw:   1593m³/c  »  1992m³/c    (+25%)
Hulk:       1170m³/c  »  1593m³/c    (+36.25%)

B) strip miners per ship
Procurer:   1         »  2           (+50%)
Retriever:  2         »  2           (unchanged)
Covetor:    3         »  2           (-33%)
Skiff:      1         »  2           (+50%)
Mackinaw:   2         »  2           (unchanged)
Hulk:       3         »  2           (-33%)

C) seconds per cycle
Procurer:   162.0s/c  »  162.0s/c    (unchanged)
Retriever:  162.0s/c  »  162.0s/c    (unchanged)
Covetor:    144.0s/c  »  121.5s/c    (-15.625% time = +18.5% m³/s)
Skiff:      145.8s/c  »  145.8s/c    (unchanged)
Mackinaw:   145.8s/c  »  145.8s/c    (unchanged)
Hulk:       122.4s/c  »  103.3s/c    (-15.625% time = +18.5% m³/s)

F) m³ per second (= A*B/C)
Procurer:   18.05m³/s »  18.05m³/s   (unchanged)
Retriever:  19.67m³/s »  24.59m³/s   (+25%)
Covetor:    24.37m³/s »  26.23m³/s   (+7.65%)
Skiff:      21.86m³/s »  21.86m³/s   (unchanged)
Mackinaw:   21.86m³/s »  27.32m³/s   (+25%)
Hulk:       28.67m³/s »  30.86m³/s   (+7.65%)

Minor fitting changes, no base stat changes, no other role bonus changes.

Interpretation: please come out of your skiffs, so the gankers have some content again!

Until all are free...

Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#80 - 2016-08-16 19:25:09 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Details (provisional, of course) on Sisi, courtesy of Reddit:

Barges and exhumers: Traits, Attributes comparison
Strip miners: Attribute comparison

If my math's correct, these are max-yield-fitted m³/s (rounded to nearest m³) of unboosted ships with all skills to V and with T2 modules and crystals, ordered by new yields ascending, as well as the per-cycle yields:

Procurer:   2079m³/s »  2079m³/s   (unchanged)      1871m³/c »  1871m³/c    (unchanged
Skiff:      2666m³/s »  2666m³/s   (unchanged)      2039m³/c »  2039m³/c    (unchanged)
Retriever:  2266m³/s »  2833m³/s   (+25%)           2039m³/c »  2549m³/c    (+25%)
Covetor:    2807m³/s »  3022m³/s   (+7.65%)         2245m³/c »  2039m³/c    (-9.2%)
Mackinaw:   2666m³/s »  3333m³/s   (+25%)           2039m³/c »  2549m³/c    (+25%)
Hulk:       3302m³/s »  3555m³/s   (+7.65%)         2245m³/c »  2039m³/c    (-9.2%)

Minor fitting changes, no base stat changes, no other role bonus changes.

Interpretation: please come out of your skiffs, so the gankers have some content again!




even if the hulk/mak/cov/ret mined 500% more then the skiff... i would still mine in a skiff.. as would everyone i have talked to so far (which is quite a few) ... that is by choice...