EVE General Discussion

Nowhere did I ask anyone to leave.
You do not seem to understand that I want to preserve diversity while others want to remove it.
You're being way too personal about this.

You added nothing of relevance and only talk about your distorted opinion about me instead of the topic.

Of course I'll dismiss that. It's non-constructive, shows you assume to understand when you don't and just a waste of time.

If you manage to change your attitude I'd love to know your actual input! :)

I like this. I really do. It highlights that there are issues and I am not denying that.
Though it's also rather limited towards those who generate tears, which are only a small part of the whole.

The toxic elements tend to be self attracting.
Those who won't shed tears won't end up being milked.
People on both ends of the spectrum always exist.

If we remove these two, the milkers and the milked, what remains?

Who is toxic against whom?


Let me explain this:


People who only PvE (including mining) don't do anything else but PvE.
People who PvP also do PvE.
While the latter is inclusive, the former is exclusive.

PvErs project their playstyle onto PvPers, believing that every one has a role ("what would you do if all miners left?" and thus exposing a fundamental misunderstanding about the other group or how it works in general.


PvErs constantly claim that PvPers want to force their playstyle onto them, yet fail to understand that it is them who constantly demand that the playstyle of PvPers is being nerfed, which leads to reduced game play and reduced possibilities for interactions.

Contrary to PvErs do PvPers not want to REDUCE their gameplay, but to actually expand it or at least add a proper amount of immersion to it. Something that makes the game more realistic and more accurate to what it is and has been marketed for.

The fact that PvErs don't want that should not, in any way or form, lead to a reduction of freedom.

It should instead make those who are inclusive question who actually benefits from this completely broken shituation and why they're not doing anything about it despite perfectly being able to do so.

To ask "who is toxic against whom" is to look for a target where there is none. The community as a whole has become toxic. You have people taking the appearance of (real or perceived) malice into the game with actions that don't help arguments against that notion and you have the others, PVEr's or otherwise (explorers, industrialists, etc. ) who won't even talk in local out of fear at the least, and refuse all interaction with other players for the same reasons (and a lot of them are vets who have had their fill of the drama).

Having known players who got wardecced for just saying something even mundane in local, who could blame them?

To say they would be the problem, or "toxic" to use the term I have brought into this debate, is to expect them to present themselves for potential loss, which is not the name of the game. Eve players generally don't risk things without reward, be it a foray into a wormhole for some sleeper loot or gankers betting on the good graces of the loot fairy. Since too much risk without reward is a built in nerf in any case, even those who like to play for the sake of playing become averse to being beaten in circumstances they could otherwise control. If control is left to being apathetic (and apathy is a form of control that a person can take in their lives) then that's the route they would take.

In fact I would say we are using different words to describe the same thing from different directions.

Proper community management in an endeavor to reduce this toxicity/apathy would anger BOTH sides of the toxicity/apathy dynamic (one side would claim we were being forced to sing Kumbaya together, the other side would claim they are being forced to interact with people they don't want to interact with), but if it must be bitter medicine for the game I'm left wondering why a game developed by people descended from Vikings has not taken such a bold step. It's not like WiS you can't opt out of.

Gank them all and let James sort them out.

That quote by a military man talking about the difference between a house being wrecked by weather and a house being wrecked by a bunch of scallywags is dumb.
(Incidentally, people used to blame God/s or 'spirits' for any mishaps, as they wrestled themselves out of the tarpits of magical and mythical thinking.)
Maybe you misread what he was trying to say, maybe it really was that dumb. The fact that in both situations a house was wrecked is incidental and in no way ties them together.

Get on SISI, sit afk in a belt far from the places where pvp is allowed. Maybe rats will asplode your ship. That's weather. Who cares?
Now put up a POS, some labs, maybe start up some moon mining, get into T2 manufacture.
You will be in a coma from boredom very quickly, you've built a sandcastle that no wave will ever push over and no scallywag is allowed to threaten.
That's because SISI is the test server and not EVE.
The whole value of anything done in EVE is that it's done DESPITE the odds against it. Sometimes working in concert with others. "Trust nobody" is the creed of wimps, the value of trust earned, given or granted is that there's consequences you care about if that trust is broken.
The community is not toxic, it's very human and the whining efforts to "fix" the toxicity stem from a lack of understanding that without the threat of Certain Doom and Total Failure there is no pressure to be good or evil.
Hisec barnacles are 'nice' to each other, which is a false front used by people who are afraid of being treated badly.

TLDR Hisec is eating people's minds.

Get out of hisec.

Actually that isn't an awful suggestion...

Anybody who wants to play EVE without PvP - they *do* have a server where you can do that. Just hop on SiSi and knock yourself out. If anybody bothers you anywhere but the designated combat system, report them and they'll get banned from the test server.

So no need to change the game for such players - they just need to log in to the correct server for their PvP free desired lifestyle.

A few minor things need to be cleared up. Concord is an in game mechanic, not a malevolent group out to ruin your game. CCP (crowd control productions) Are the makers of said mechanic and the ones you should level your silliness towards.

There are huge swaths of space where Concord does not go. WH space, low and null. Fly there if you want to be beyond their plans to make you into an apathetic drone of a player. If the mechanics offend you then adapt or move on. Sole, above, I know adapts and adjusts to suit the locale.

Apathy? Who cares if someone decides to be apathetic?

You play your game within the structure of the program or you ask the writers of the program to consider making changes. (Hint: appeal to their bottom line) Yelling at a part of the game directly? Personally, I am surprised you have not been mocked more.

Tldr? Lots of space for you to play your way and others to play theirs.

m

Read every post ... I'm still not getting your point beyond a typical highsec is too safe rant mixed with some role play references ... . One thing, when you all are talking about a "toxic" community, you are referring to the loud minority of forum and chat whiners, maybe 0.1% or less? of the active player base.

I cut the quote short to save space.

The reason why this or any other community grows toxic is growth. I've seen it over a dozen times by now in the last half year. I've seen it happen one time personally in the end of the nineties. It happens all the time and the reasons are always the same.

Growth and a lack of proper moderation. The reason why toxicity increases is because idiots and assholes start coming in. When they come, smart ones start to leave. More idiots come, because idiots attract idiots, which leads to even more smart people leaving. It's like this everywhere and always, unless there is heavy moderation happening.

The same reason why forums of free to play games generally are rather ****. My personal experience was the Archage General Discussions forum, where people would have never ever talked like that IRL to the face of the respective persons they addressed. It would have gotten them either locked up or beaten up.

The increase in toxicity is something that grew in EVE over time, because more and more assholes came in and the core community simply left for various reasons. In the end, thanks to the generational gaps, eventually there won't be enough people left who remember the core values of the game and CONCORD is able to change it.

And people aren't scared of talking. There's way too many of them around to make such a statement. Plus, new players aren't talking either and have no idea why they would even be scared. It's an issue regarding the system. Lack of proper interaction and social activity leads to isolation. They start in isolation and they keep staying in isolation. Those who join a corp are definitely exceptions, else retention rate would be higher!



Mike: I hope that you never ever visit any RP forums, because they'd just ban you for being a boring party-pooper.



And Serene again completely missed the point. I'm sorry for not strictly pointing out that I summed up certain activities as "PvE", like mining. It does not change the fact though, that those who only do PvE don't do PvP. Those who PvP absolutely do PvE also, because it helps them fund their shenanigans! If you don't believe me just go ask people. How you want to break this apart is beyond me, but you can sure as well try.

Proof positive that a certain genus of the "Mushroom" species can cause you to see the light in a totally different spectrum than the normal laws of physics allows for!



Max