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1400mm - help understanding an issue
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Igor Franskein
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-08-08 08:43:46 UTC
Hey all, this might be a noob question but as I don’t know the answer thought I would ask.

Yesterday we had to defend a citadel from hostiles, we loaded tornados and set to engage the enemy.

Catching them coming in to system we had a few skirmished and inflicted some damage, we were tracing well in the ranges 100km – 180km.

Now all tornados were loading 1400mm tech IIs with tracking computers and tracking enhancers.


When they hit the citadel and started assaulting the shields, we warped in at 140km loading range ammo.

For the next 10 mins we couldn’t score a single hit on them and I’d like to understand what we were doing wrong?

They had armour oracles, and none of them were AB-ing given there indicated speed, they were orbiting the anchor at 200ms @ range 140km – 160km.

Optimal was 140km, with 80km fall off on the tornado.

Could links have made that much a of a difference to our tracking all of a sudden?
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-08-08 10:28:17 UTC
links don't interest tracking bonus on weapons.
they can boost speed and descrease sig radius though. but still it doesn't explain why you couldn't track them at all.

i run a simulation using "pyfa's graph" to apply damage to those oracles with the fit you described and you should have tracked them with no problems..........

no idea of what happened.... are you sure to have loaded the exact type of ammos?
Igor Franskein
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-08-08 10:34:42 UTC
Pretty certain, we had Republic fleet EMP L and tremor in the hold. I switched between both 2 times and adjusted range accordingly to check and still nothing.

It was bizarre, when they entered system we'd been dishing out rounds on them before they could warp with no issue. I was off-gate 180km with tremor and could hit fine, spent 3 rounds.

Warped to 140km with out reloading and fired again and nothing would connect.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-08-08 10:41:58 UTC
well the only solution i can think of is the ammos.... just to be sure you should check the logs but... don't ask me how Shocked
they are somewhere in the client i suppose.

i mean i can only think of ammos problem... was only you or all your fleet with the same issue?
Igor Franskein
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-08-08 10:44:35 UTC
Entire fleet had the same issue
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-08-08 10:49:00 UTC
well then no clue... i'm sorry Shocked

only suggest i can give you is to try open a ticket with ccp and ask to investigate.... maybe something involved with the citadel mechanics or who knows what Shocked

but don't place your hopes on a fast answer.... or one at all... CCP support system atm doesn't seem working pretty well.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#7 - 2016-08-08 11:07:56 UTC
Several things come to mind here.

First thing:

You said you loaded range ammo in your T2 arties. This sounds like you loaded Tremor.
In that case, Tremor has a 75% tracking penalty, meaning that you will only have 25% of your base tracking left. This is not a problem on Medium guns, but it sure as hell is one on Large guns. For example if you would be flying an Oracle, and warp in at ~200 on a Cyno, and shoot with Aurora, you'd have trouble hitting the stationary cyno frigate alone from your OWN movement aligning out with ~150m/s.

Solution: Use different Ammo that tracks well. Titanium Sabot & Depleted Uranium (Normal Range) have a 20% tracking bonus. The range ammo (T1) has a 5% tracking bonus. Consider using drugs (i think "Drop" is the tracking drug, but check yourself.)

Second thing:

They might hava managed to setup skirmish links once they're in, which reduces their signature by a fair margin, which then reduces your ability to track well.
Solution: Use tracking ammo.


But the most likely reason (and most impactful) is: You used Tremor.
Solecist Project
#8 - 2016-08-08 12:05:51 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Several things come to mind here.

First thing:

You said you loaded range ammo in your T2 arties. This sounds like you loaded Tremor.
In that case, Tremor has a 75% tracking penalty, meaning that you will only have 25% of your base tracking left. This is not a problem on Medium guns, but it sure as hell is one on Large guns. For example if you would be flying an Oracle, and warp in at ~200 on a Cyno, and shoot with Aurora, you'd have trouble hitting the stationary cyno frigate alone from your OWN movement aligning out with ~150m/s.

Solution: Use different Ammo that tracks well. Titanium Sabot & Depleted Uranium (Normal Range) have a 20% tracking bonus. The range ammo (T1) has a 5% tracking bonus. Consider using drugs (i think "Drop" is the tracking drug, but check yourself.)

Second thing:

They might hava managed to setup skirmish links once they're in, which reduces their signature by a fair margin, which then reduces your ability to track well.
Solution: Use tracking ammo.


But the most likely reason (and most impactful) is: You used Tremor.

You still hit things at 140km with tremor.
Especially an Oracle.
And they didn't even use ABs.

I used to use Tremor all the time, it's not that bad.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Viktor Amarr
#9 - 2016-08-08 12:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Amarr
Recreating the scenario (kinda difficult as I don't know your skills) and using a Nado fit that matches your description using Tremor you would do 65 (not even 20% of your paper dps) dps to a full transversal non-AB oracle that uses loki links, and that assumes maxed out gunnery skills.If you yourself also move a bit then there's a really big chance you'll mess it up even further.

Would you have swapped to Nuclear ammo (or another range ammo, depending on damage type needed) that would up to 227 dps, almost 80% of paper dps.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#10 - 2016-08-08 18:21:13 UTC
Where your tornados moving, you own movement hinders tracking with 1400mm turrets.

Position, to reduce transversal and or get in a range that favours you, stop ship, paint targets, fire.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-08-08 20:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Viktor Amarr wrote:
Recreating the scenario (kinda difficult as I don't know your skills) and using a Nado fit that matches your description using Tremor you would do 65 (not even 20% of your paper dps) dps to a full transversal non-AB oracle that uses loki links, and that assumes maxed out gunnery skills.If you yourself also move a bit then there's a really big chance you'll mess it up even further.

Would you have swapped to Nuclear ammo (or another range ammo, depending on damage type needed) that would up to 227 dps, almost 80% of paper dps.


this statement is bs af
Roll

get better at simulation plsBear

they didn't have any problems at applying damage in the skirmishes before landing on the citadel's grid.
and links don't make that much of a difference to a no-ab ship in tracking issues
Viktor Amarr
#12 - 2016-08-08 22:47:45 UTC
They do when you use tremor.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2016-08-09 02:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Several things might have caused this:
- They set up skirmish links that reduced their sig radius and increased their speed
- They had a Ragnarok in system which reduced their sig radius
- You tracked them fine the first time because you were aligned out away from them, while the next time you were aligned out perpendicular to them. ( | vs L)

Situations
Tremor
You are aligned directly away from a stationary Oracle @140km: ~399 DPS
You are aligned directly away from an orbiting Oracle @140km: ~199 DPS
You are aligned directly away from an orbiting Oracle @140km with Skirmish links: ~35 DPS
You are aligned perpendicularly to an orbiting Oracle @140km with skirmish links: ~0 DPS

Nuclear
You are aligned directly away from a stationary Oracle @140km: ~265 DPS
You are aligned directly away from an orbiting Oracle @140km: ~227 DPS
You are aligned directly away from an orbiting Oracle @140km with Skirmish links: ~223 DPS
You are aligned perpendicularly to an orbiting Oracle @140km with skirmish links: ~124 DPS

So, my guess is that you used Tremor and your align target was poorly chosen.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.