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Every year, there are less users playing, why??

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Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#841 - 2016-08-02 20:00:54 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Geronimo McVain wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
And we circle back to the beginning...

How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK?


He dies once or twice. Then he knows.

What stops you from just pointing, shooting once, without killing him, and then telling him what he did wrong? You will loose your ship anyway and get nothing back.


Dude I don't even bother with highsec belts, rookie ships, capsules, ventures, shuttles or whatever else people are flying unless I perceive them as a threat or an immediate target. I'll open fire on a suspect or criminal if I happen to run across one but you don't expect me to hug every venture along the way to make sure they are feeling okay mmm?

When I see a miner I also do not get this urge to kill it dead and club it till it unsubs. I've actually done just what you described on multiple occasions in nullsec: pointed them, shot them through shield, then ran off to assist friends who had tackled something far more interesting. Out of the kindness of my heart.

Did you know I've even reimbursed several obvious rookies (rifters, algos, a probe and a venture who was apparently unaware of the inner workings of drag bubbles) as soon as I glanced over the killmails and saw they must have took a wrong turn and wound up a little too far from Heimatar?

Nah man. Barking up the wrong tree here. When I do shoot someone completely out of their league I reimburse, open a convo and try to help them along and do you know what they do? They either close convo, start insulting me or put a bounty on my head hoping their merc friends will come show me the error of my ways. Only once did such a victim take my advice and thank me for it. ONCE.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. It's just that there are more ways to learn by dying. There are a lot of fine people out there. It's just that many seam just to be scared to admit that they are not ultra cool and hard hearted.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#842 - 2016-08-02 20:02:59 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. It's just that there are more ways to learn by dying. There are a lot of fine people out there. It's just that many seam just to be scared to admit that they are not ultra cool and hard hearted.


Restraint adds character to a character. Practice it in moderate doses though Lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#843 - 2016-08-02 20:08:20 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

So you still got literally not one scrap of empirical data other than all the whining on the forums by Bads™.

I'm guessing that due to some issues I addressed earlier the actual number for Red Frog Freight specifically is at around 1% of their runs that get ganked. This is not based on hard data sadly - but it seems like a pretty reasonable estimate for them.
[/quote]

Actually its 0.25% and that includes all failed contracts not just ganked.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#844 - 2016-08-02 20:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
And we circle back to the beginning...

How does the true new player (flying whatever new flavor of entrance miner) mystically know what to look for to avoid getting ganked by a pilot that has decided that Lulz & Tears is better currency than ISK?


--Gadget



Two ways.

Go look it up or learn from experience. When I first started I chose to try doing missions in a balckbird because I thought it looked cool, I also bought an arbitrator because that too looked cool. Both died horribly. Right now I am learning capital ships, namely the dreadnought and by god have I made some mistakes.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#845 - 2016-08-02 21:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
baltec1 wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
I'm guessing that due to some issues I addressed earlier the actual number for Red Frog Freight specifically is at around 1% of their runs that get ganked. This is not based on hard data sadly - but it seems like a pretty reasonable estimate for them.
Actually its 0.25% and that includes all failed contracts not just ganked.
Your quote broke - and yes, I know, I'm the one who did the math P

But yeah, that 1% was purely a guess....that is *why* I went and did the math, I felt bad guessing after my rant earlier.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#846 - 2016-08-02 22:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:


This i size of 200 - 100% of coins land head-side up.

People like you will take this and say that I have proven that any coin flipped will land head-side up 100% of the time...but we all know this is ridiculous. Just because I got bad samples for a single survey and released a misleading statistic, it doesn't make the results true for the rest of the world.

The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually *proven* - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations.

People like me will what? Where did you get that stupid judgement from?

As to scientific method, we all of us are people beyond our characters with varied backgrounds and experiences. Mine happens to be with a PhD in Chemistry, so I'm quite comfortable with both my understanding and application of scientific method. Bickering about the level of thinking about the issue isn't an important focus of the discussion overall and doesn't change the original point being made.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#847 - 2016-08-02 23:01:24 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:


This i size of 200 - 100% of coins land head-side up.

People like you will take this and say that I have proven that any coin flipped will land head-side up 100% of the time...but we all know this is ridiculous. Just because I got bad samples for a single survey and released a misleading statistic, it doesn't make the results true for the rest of the world.

The scientific method is an intentionally difficult, long, and rigorous process to remove discrepancies of this type and to ensure that the results are actually *proven* - not merely indicated by 1 potentially skewed set of uncontrolled observations.

People like me will what? Where did you get that stupid judgement from?

As to scientific method, we all of us are people beyond our characters with varied backgrounds and experiences. Mine happens to be with a PhD in Chemistry, so I'm quite comfortable with both my understanding and application of scientific method. Bickering about the level of thinking about the issue isn't an important focus of the discussion overall and doesn't change the original point being made.

Perhaps from the way you took a meaningless statistic about # of freighters ganked vs # of jumps for Red Frog and stated that it *proved* something via the scientific method...

As someone with a PhD in Chemistry, you of all people should know that precision of wording matters...and that statistics do not consitute any level of scientific "proof"


You are correct however that it doesn't change the core point being made regarding ganking. It just means that *nobody* has any *proof* one way or another - just a statistical sampling which we believe indicates something about it.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#848 - 2016-08-02 23:04:38 UTC
Which is obviously the best anyone can do and a helluvalot better than guesstimating some assumption and building upon that. Aye?
Paranoid Loyd
#849 - 2016-08-02 23:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Yarr! Pirate

I mean Aye!

What are we talking about again? Lol

Where's my damn rum?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#850 - 2016-08-02 23:11:49 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Which is obviously the best anyone can do and a helluvalot better than guesstimating some assumption and building upon that. Aye?

Lol yes, yes it is P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#851 - 2016-08-02 23:12:21 UTC
Someone in a retriever once stole captain Hookbill's crates of rhum and they're getting murderzoned on the seven highsec seas ever since.

And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad.
Paranoid Loyd
#852 - 2016-08-02 23:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad.

Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye.

Ok sorry to derail, back to talking in circles without enough data. Blink

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#853 - 2016-08-03 00:18:44 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad.

Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye.

Ok sorry to derail, back to talking in circles without enough data. Blink


More data.
Paranoid Loyd
#854 - 2016-08-03 00:29:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
And me? I'm still looking for me glass eye lad.

Heh, I might have a spare implant around if you can't find your eye.

Ok sorry to derail, back to talking in circles without enough data. Blink


More data.

Man that was a trippy episode.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#855 - 2016-08-03 03:58:45 UTC
Okay, here is the youtube video of the CCP presentation on new players and ganking.

This actually has data, after all CCP did the work and they have the data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y

The video discusses how CCP tried to measure if ganking drives away new players--i.e. people who are new to the game.

The took 80,000 users--i.e. not alt accounts. FYI as per my previous post that is ALOT of users. As I noted for our customers if we wanted population level statistics we'd use a sample of say 2,500 out of 5.2 million. So spare this nonsense about the sample being limited, too small, etc. Before you post something like that get thee to a statistics course.

Checked for deaths in the first 15 days.

Checked to see who, if anyone, killed the killer--i.e. was it another player, nobody, or CONCORD.

Based on the above, new players were categorized into not killed, killed legally, killed illegally--i.e. ganked.

Then the looked at retention--i.e. how long did they stay with the game.

Order of retention, longest to shortest was,

Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all.

Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked.

Take away:

1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days.
2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer.
3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU.
4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie.
5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#856 - 2016-08-03 05:03:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, here is the youtube video of the CCP presentation on new players and ganking.

This actually has data, after all CCP did the work and they have the data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y

The video discusses how CCP tried to measure if ganking drives away new players--i.e. people who are new to the game.

The took 80,000 users--i.e. not alt accounts. FYI as per my previous post that is ALOT of users. As I noted for our customers if we wanted population level statistics we'd use a sample of say 2,500 out of 5.2 million. So spare this nonsense about the sample being limited, too small, etc. Before you post something like that get thee to a statistics course.

Checked for deaths in the first 15 days.

Checked to see who, if anyone, killed the killer--i.e. was it another player, nobody, or CONCORD.

Based on the above, new players were categorized into not killed, killed legally, killed illegally--i.e. ganked.

Then the looked at retention--i.e. how long did they stay with the game.

Order of retention, longest to shortest was,

Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all.

Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked.

Take away:

1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days.
2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer.
3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU.
4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie.
5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU.



So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic?

I have no words...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#857 - 2016-08-03 05:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, here is the youtube video of the CCP presentation on new players and ganking.

This actually has data, after all CCP did the work and they have the data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y

The video discusses how CCP tried to measure if ganking drives away new players--i.e. people who are new to the game.

The took 80,000 users--i.e. not alt accounts. FYI as per my previous post that is ALOT of users. As I noted for our customers if we wanted population level statistics we'd use a sample of say 2,500 out of 5.2 million. So spare this nonsense about the sample being limited, too small, etc. Before you post something like that get thee to a statistics course.

Checked for deaths in the first 15 days.

Checked to see who, if anyone, killed the killer--i.e. was it another player, nobody, or CONCORD.

Based on the above, new players were categorized into not killed, killed legally, killed illegally--i.e. ganked.

Then the looked at retention--i.e. how long did they stay with the game.

Order of retention, longest to shortest was,

Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all.

Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked.

Take away:

1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days.
2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer.
3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU.
4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie.
5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU.



So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic?

I have no words...


Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 800 players.

Corrected, from 8,000 to 800.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#858 - 2016-08-03 06:20:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Order of retention, longest to shortest was,

Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all.

Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked.

Take away:

1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days.
2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer.
3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU.
4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie.
5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU.



So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic?

I have no words...


Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 8,000 players.


80,000*0.01 = 800.


Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#859 - 2016-08-03 06:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Order of retention, longest to shortest was,

Killed illegally, killed legally, not killed at all.

Other results were that 85.5% do not die in the first 15 days. 13.5% were killed legally, and the remaining 1% were ganked.

Take away:

1. 1% of new players are ganked in their first 15 days.
2. Players who are ganked will tend to stick with the game longer.
3. All the other whining to the contrary in this thread has **** all for data or analysis, so you can have a nice cup of STFU.
4. New players are not being slaughtered wholesale. That narrative is just a bullshit lie.
5. Yes, this is counter intuitive, but that is why we have mathematics and statistics, so please, enjoy that cup of STFU.



So they keep saying ganked players stick longer to the game, basing this on a 1% statistic?

I have no words...


Yeah, maybe you need a course in statistics. That is based on 8,000 players.


80,000*0.01 = 800.




Still it is good enough.

Edit:
To be clear if 2,500 is a good enough sample for 5.2 million customers then 800 is fine if we have 500,000 customers.

Everyone wants to rubbish the CCP analysis...but then again those people also have an agenda to push.

And it is more data and analysis that the "ganking is bad" side has.

So lets go with the side with no data, no analysis and has an agenda they want to push. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#860 - 2016-08-03 06:58:05 UTC
Lex Gabinia wrote:

Yep - that's now EVE works.

There is in game help chat channel, there is New Character QA on these forums, there are subforums for industrial, wormholes, missions, etc. There are numerous player run websites/guides and a vibrant EVE reddit.

All the information, and there is a ridiculous amount of it, is available but not without any effort. The complexity is what makes the game playable long term. This is not a game with a defined starting and end point. That is why people can play it for 13 years.

Yes it is Eves way now. The problem is not the complexity but the missing help to deal with it. Why dos even a simple shooter has a tutorial that tells you the basics of game mechanic but Eve doesn't even tell you how to properly fit a ship? Just a copy of the Uni Wiki sides about shield and armor tanking would be sufficient. Why does it tell you how to manufacture and research things when this career only becomes a real choice after 3-6 month if you have the money to invest? You are using a computer which is only really usable when you hide all the programming stuff from the user. You can either be a user or a programmer but most people don't have the time to be both. Windows is ultra complex but hides it from 99% of the users.
What does it do if there are some storys that pulls the noob in and tells him what to do instead of kicking him out and just let him find his way? It doesn't touch the complexity it just helps him to learn a complex game. What you are proposing, and what Eve is doing is as if someone wants to learn an instrument and just toss him some notes and tell him the relevant stuff may be found in the Internet.