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Warp to 0. Why ?
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Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#1 - 2012-01-16 13:11:59 UTC
I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.

My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?

The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.

I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.

So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Raneru
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#2 - 2012-01-16 13:15:54 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:


My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?


If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0.

The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#3 - 2012-01-16 13:19:07 UTC
Raneru wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:


My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?


If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0.

The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them.


Ok, I understand the database issue. So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-01-16 13:22:56 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Raneru wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:


My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?


If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0.

The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them.


Ok, I understand the database issue. So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.


I think i would honestly die of laughter from all of the rage surrounding suicide ganking haulers

I has all the eve inactivity
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#5 - 2012-01-16 13:38:24 UTC
This would encourage players to THINK about their indy fits, encourage teamwork (have a buddy in a t1 repair cruiser escort you) and improve the rewards on courrier contracts.

It would also help freeing up some 0.0 space, by reducing fleet mobility and thus the space an alliance can defend.

On the other hand, it would give ratters and miners a bit more time to safe up when a red enters local.

As I said, I never knew the game without the warp to 0 feature, but I would love to try it.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-01-16 13:41:01 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.

Well if they did it now, it would make hauling stuff and travelling in every system outside highsec very dangerous. There wouldn't be any chance to avoid gatecamps anymore. Resulting in people staying away from those areas, which aren't very densely populated to start with anyway. Why would you want that?
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#7 - 2012-01-16 13:54:00 UTC
Cathy Drall wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.

Well if they did it now, it would make hauling stuff and travelling in every system outside highsec very dangerous. There wouldn't be any chance to avoid gatecamps anymore. Resulting in people staying away from those areas, which aren't very densely populated to start with anyway. Why would you want that?


Providing adrenaline and promoting balls ?

No, more seriously, for the reasons stated in my previous post and maybe improving the utility of Transport ships compared to Iteron V.

It could also act as an additional incent for players to fight against the gate campers rather than waiting for them to go away. There could be roams organised for cleaning up trade routes and break blockades.

Was 0.0 space completely empty before the implementation of warp to 0 ?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Elisha Starkiller
EU Industrials
#8 - 2012-01-16 13:54:10 UTC
we want to encourage people to goto Low and Null sec! not scare them off! :D
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#9 - 2012-01-16 13:56:13 UTC
Elisha Starkiller wrote:
we want to encourage people to goto Low and Null sec! not scare them off! :D


I am more scared of highsec TBH. Wardecs, suicide gankers, overcrowded local, so that it's hard to check for reds, etc...

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#10 - 2012-01-16 14:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Before WTZ traveling in EVE was a grind, even when using the DB killing bookmarks. It was argued that since there are plenty of other things in EVE that are a grind, something as simple as traveling should not be. If you played for 2 hours for instance, you could easily spend 40 minutes of that just trying to get somewhere, not fun when you are paying to "play".

It also discouraged players from spreading-out very far from wherever they first entered the game, and it took a lot less players to lag out a node back then. In the end, the load all the bookmarks was putting on the DB forced CCP to make the change, as it was common for a player to have thousands of these, and just the act of copying them (to sell) could lag out a node under certain circumstances.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
seany1212
M Y S T
#11 - 2012-01-16 14:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: seany1212
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Elisha Starkiller wrote:
we want to encourage people to goto Low and Null sec! not scare them off! :D


I am more scared of highsec TBH. Wardecs, suicide gankers, overcrowded local, so that it's hard to check for reds, etc...


OP sounds mad because he either failed to gank his target or is mad that they keep getting away, if I remember a few weeks ago there was several lossmails from bloodbound failing to gank a freighter because of some being afk Lol
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-01-16 14:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cathy Drall
Iris Bravemount wrote:

No, more seriously, for the reasons stated in my previous post and maybe improving the utility of Transport ships compared to Iteron V.

It could also act as an additional incent for players to fight against the gate campers rather than waiting for them to go away. There could be roams organised for cleaning up trade routes and break blockades.

Well I guess the thing is that for various reasons, a lot of people don't play in groups.

Some people live in different timezones or they may have jobs outside 9 to 5. Travel in EVE is very time consuming, it's very hard to gather a fleet just to transport some stuff while you could have earned a lot more ISK by doing Incursions for example. Add to that that you need to put a lot of ships at risk to defeat an organized gatecamp, just a t1 logistics cruiser won't do.

Games need content that can be done solo, otherwise it would make a lot of casual people stop playing the game.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#13 - 2012-01-16 14:23:48 UTC
Cathy Drall wrote:

Games need content that can be done solo, otherwise it would make a lot of casual people stop playing the game.


I guess that's the best argument out there.

And Seany1212, FYI, I do not participate in gate camps, unless it's part of a CTA op. So I am not mad about anything, just curious about what I missed by joining the game so late.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
seany1212
M Y S T
#14 - 2012-01-16 14:29:13 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Cathy Drall wrote:

Games need content that can be done solo, otherwise it would make a lot of casual people stop playing the game.


I guess that's the best argument out there.

And Seany1212, FYI, I do not participate in gate camps, unless it's part of a CTA op. So I am not mad about anything, just curious about what I missed by joining the game so late.


You didn't miss anything, people made warp to 0 bookmarks for a reason and then CCP made changes to reflect that, the best thing they kept was autopilot warping to 15.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#15 - 2012-01-16 14:38:11 UTC
Most players want warp to zero on a gate, few want it gone. CCP is just listening to the customer base.

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Marcus Harikari
#16 - 2012-01-16 14:46:43 UTC
I didn't play before this, but I can't imagine life without it. Next they need to implement autopilot-to-0. I don't see any reason why they haven't, yet.
Othran
Route One
#17 - 2012-01-16 14:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
It wasn't just the bookmark packs (regional WTZ bookmarks were sold on escrow in their thousands), there were a LOT of WTZ hacks/injections around back then. Edit - IIRC CCP nerfed bookmark copying and then the WTZ hack/injections started appearing.

So CCP finally saw sense - after the nerfbat of doom visited bookmark copying - and put in manual WTZ. Hell most of the server population was doing just that with BMs/hacks anyway.
Kusariqqu
BB8's
#18 - 2012-01-16 14:56:28 UTC
I used to have around 3000 bookmarks before wtz came about, and i know lots of people with the same amount or even more in alot of cases.

Eve used to freeze up for at least 5 mins sometimes just opening my places and cans full of bms. It was to reduce lag from servers.

And for the noobs its was a god send cos it made pirating 100x more difficult, but in the process created a new style of play. No longer could a pirate sit at 15km from the direction of a gate and nab ppl, they had to play smarter or loose the kills.

I for one was all for the warp to zero, Hell just for the fact everytime i had to clear my catch it would take about 3 days to sort thro my bms and place them in there seperate folders.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-01-16 15:07:57 UTC
I never figured out why CCP didn't put a bubble around gates, but meh. Current mechanics work okay.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#20 - 2012-01-16 15:10:41 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
This would encourage players to THINK about their indy fits, encourage teamwork (have a buddy in a t1 repair cruiser escort you).


Good try, but no.

A properly fit T1 hauler of any kind (that's still capable of doing the job it was intended for) would explode in one or two vollys when coming up against most gank ship fits.

Warp to zero is a form of speed tank.
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