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Empire or Honour?

Author
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#161 - 2016-08-02 04:47:39 UTC
I wouldn't agree that 'honor,' for what it's worth, is limited to the front lines of any conflict. Especially as that combat is dependent on people who, as zoolkhan eloquently put it 'produce ships and arms to feed it.' Without this food source, could such 'honorable' combat even commence?

Furthermore, are we to say their is no honor is creating things? In selling them for a fair price? Is a person who braves the dangers of New Eden to deliver goods to others without honor because said person isn't actively killing someone? What of administrators, managers, and financiers who ensure the logistics for such battles? And that's just in space. We haven't covered parents who raise children, friends and spouses who offer moral support, people who work crap jobs for no money but show up anyway because they weren't raised to be quitters.

I dunno, all of that seems pretty honorable to me, but then, I am one of those highsec dwellers, so I could be biased, and I could also be pitching my services, too so there's that. :)
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#162 - 2016-08-02 06:21:10 UTC
It's all about ethical standards and values and adherence to them.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

zoolkhan
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#163 - 2016-08-02 11:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: zoolkhan
Felise Selunix wrote:
I wouldn't agree that 'honor,' for what it's worth, is limited to the front lines of any conflict. Especially as that combat is dependent on people who, as zoolkhan eloquently put it 'produce ships and arms to feed it.' Without this food source, could such 'honorable' combat even commence?

Furthermore, are we to say their is no honor is creating things? In selling them for a fair price?


Valid input, i have to admit. Perhaps my comment was not fair in that sense.

It is true, what would we do - without those builders and miners? Let me think .... we would build and mine ourselves.

That is what we did before, when we built UNITY station in providence - it could not be bought from a shelf.

That is what we did when we fought our war, because building on the frontline or within the alliance was the only way to get fair prices and compensate for the heavy lossses in what seemed to be a very lonesome battle.

A handful alliances... and only one of them in nullsec fought the Amarr empire and much larger amarr loyalist alliances.
Against that was a 1000 times larger carebear force thinking about their own purse - selling to just any buyers, not even discriminating between Slaver , Criminal of "the state" or matari fredom fighter....

....ask yourself. Are you really supporting your troops as a matari? or are you merely pretending to do so for the sake of this argument?

One thing is honorable, but not profitable. The other thing makes you a person not worth my time.

The choice is yours.


quick recap for the professional word twisters...
What i really mean to say is: "no, honor is not only on the frontlines, somertimes quite shameful acts
are comitted there... not every fighter is a honorable warrior either"

Yes, also behind the frontlines you can do honorable things. But getting filthy rich is not one of those things.

Whatever your profession is, there is a great difference in where or how you bring it to bear.


So - If youre a poet or entertainer, would you come out to our frontline stations to entertain those who put their life in the line to keep your world out of harms way? Or do you prefer pator, jita and rens - where the payment and living standards are more suitable to a star like you?

if youre a builder, would you give rebates to matari warrirors fighting also for _YOU_ to keep you free or even liberate your kin?

If youre a miner, would you invest your time into providing valuable minerals for ammo and spareparts, ship production free of charge, like our warriors waste their crews, and material and even more of their time to keep the slavers in check?


--

We are at war, whether you care or not -
and troop morale is all that keeps the enemy from blasting through your doors and taking your children.

Ask yourself, if youre eligeble to talk about "honor" - if the answer is a yes, then i will bother you no more.

Maybe some of you find it in their heart to do a little more for troop morale than they have been considered doing before.


zoolkhan
channel "xxxxx" (taking every help i can get channeling it towards honourable goals - not just combat pilots)
Ushra'khan - we come for our people
Lord Kailethre
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#164 - 2016-08-02 12:35:53 UTC
What is up with this slate of new, young Amarr capsuleers who seem so intent on insulting their people and their heritage in some inane quest to achieve what the Republic and Federation deem politically correct?
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#165 - 2016-08-02 12:46:51 UTC
Lord Kailethre wrote:
What is up with this slate of new, young Amarr capsuleers who seem so intent on insulting their people and their heritage in some inane quest to achieve what the Republic and Federation deem politically correct?


Something something revenge for dead family.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#166 - 2016-08-02 17:39:44 UTC
zoolkhan wrote:
....ask yourself. Are you really supporting your troops as a matari? or are you merely pretending to do so for the sake of this argument?

One thing is honorable, but not profitable. The other thing makes you a person not worth my time.

The choice is yours.


Me personally? Oh no, not at all. At least I wouldn't describe supporting matari war aims as my primary goal for entering into commercial activity. If I've given that impression, then I must have been more tired than I thought when I responded and I offer my sincerest apologies.

No, I buy and sell from those who want to sell and buy, period. I'm in business to do business. I don't claim otherwise and I'm pretty satisfied overall. I've done that all of my life, as have the members of my family. It's what I do. If that makes me unworthy of your time, well I guess that makes sense and I can understand your point of view. I'll just have to accept that and find a way to move on and get on with my life, somehow.

That doesn't make my point any less valid, though. From the sounds of these statements:

zoolkhan wrote:
So - If youre a poet or entertainer, would you come out to our frontline stations to entertain those who put their life in the line to keep your world out of harms way? Or do you prefer pator, jita and rens - where the payment and living standards are more suitable to a star like you?

if youre a builder, would you give rebates to matari warrirors fighting also for _YOU_ to keep you free or even liberate your kin?

If youre a miner, would you invest your time into providing valuable minerals for ammo and spareparts, ship production free of charge, like our warriors waste their crews, and material and even more of their time to keep the slavers in check?


...we seem to be in some sort of agreement that these activities have value, which was where I was headed with that. I might further argue that these activities have value whether or not they are furthering your war aims, but I suppose that will have to remain a point of disagreement between us, dear zoolkhan.

As to your DIY logistics program, it sounds like it was successful for the time and if it works for you and yours, I think you should continue it. I applaud you. Just know that if that becomes untenable, the business sector (especially me!) will be here for all of your purchasing needs.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#167 - 2016-08-06 13:06:27 UTC
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Empire or Honour ... right?

I noticed some people coming down on the word honour. Saying that there is something wrong with putting honour before social structure or political and military command. These types of people are usually referred to as tyrants given enough man power and time.

The truth is honour is more important than many people realize. I assume it is a rhetorical question when you say "Empire or Honour" but it is actually as good a statement as any.

The Amarr Empire is so distasteful that one can belong to a dishonorable organization and still achieve honour by not being smiled upon by Empirical order. That being said. Honour is as delicate and "shady" a word as that. That is why it is a personal word and less associated with mainstream ideology or large organizations than it should be.

However, if larger sects of people put that word in conjunction with titles. Corporation headlines would hold more dependable, amicable, and respectable reputations.

Like ... "the honour of the Empire"
or ... "by the honour of the TRIADS."
and ... "for the honour of the U'K."

statements like that should be used frequently and be sincere.

That is why I support your move away from the dishonor of the Empire.

The Amarr Empire is one of the most honorable factions in our cluster. This is why they are and not anyone else are our both trusted military and trade allies.

When the Empire promises something, we believe them.

Have you ever seen Templars? Paladins? The whole Amarr military doctrine is built on honor... something that Minmatars still fail to grasp with their infamous Valklears and "Chaos Fighters"... Republicans are savages and primitives, known with their inhumanity and disrespect to other cultures.

Paladins of the Empire defend their homes, families and lands from agressors. While minmatars attack them only to kill, destroy and kidnap.

Would anyone sane leave the law enforcement corporation to join gurista, claiming that law enforces don't have honor?... This is just ridiculous. If you want to go bad and help their savages in their crfiminal acts against the Empire, at least do it as a real criminal - in silence. And don't play comedy for us. Okay?

I and many others live by honor. For us our honor is more precious than our lives. And your misusage of this word feels insulting.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#168 - 2016-08-06 14:13:31 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Have you ever seen Templars? Paladins? The whole Amarr military doctrine is built on honor... something that Minmatars still fail to grasp with their infamous Valklears and "Chaos Fighters"... Republicans are savages and primitives, known with their inhumanity and disrespect to other cultures.

Paladins of the Empire defend their homes, families and lands from agressors. While minmatars attack them only to kill, destroy and kidnap.



One of my best friends is a Templar, and a good man. That said, this statement is remarkably false. When has the Amarr Empire ever been the defender in a war? They invaded the Matari. They invaded the Jove. They invaded and assimilated many other nations as well, who were nearly all made to be slaves. It's quite a stretch for one group of people to enslave vast sections of an entire group of people, and then when the rest of that group of people comes back to take them, to call it "an invasion"

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#169 - 2016-08-06 14:32:23 UTC
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Slayer Liberator
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#170 - 2016-08-06 17:20:32 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Empire or Honour ... right?

I noticed some people coming down on the word honour. Saying that there is something wrong with putting honour before social structure or political and military command. These types of people are usually referred to as tyrants given enough man power and time.

The truth is honour is more important than many people realize. I assume it is a rhetorical question when you say "Empire or Honour" but it is actually as good a statement as any.

The Amarr Empire is so distasteful that one can belong to a dishonorable organization and still achieve honour by not being smiled upon by Empirical order. That being said. Honour is as delicate and "shady" a word as that. That is why it is a personal word and less associated with mainstream ideology or large organizations than it should be.

However, if larger sects of people put that word in conjunction with titles. Corporation headlines would hold more dependable, amicable, and respectable reputations.

Like ... "the honour of the Empire"
or ... "by the honour of the TRIADS."
and ... "for the honour of the U'K."

statements like that should be used frequently and be sincere.

That is why I support your move away from the dishonor of the Empire.

The Amarr Empire is one of the most honorable factions in our cluster. This is why they are and not anyone else are our both trusted military and trade allies.

When the Empire promises something, we believe them.

Have you ever seen Templars? Paladins? The whole Amarr military doctrine is built on honor... something that Minmatars still fail to grasp with their infamous Valklears and "Chaos Fighters"... Republicans are savages and primitives, known with their inhumanity and disrespect to other cultures.

Paladins of the Empire defend their homes, families and lands from agressors. While minmatars attack them only to kill, destroy and kidnap.

Would anyone sane leave the law enforcement corporation to join gurista, claiming that law enforces don't have honor?... This is just ridiculous. If you want to go bad and help their savages in their crfiminal acts against the Empire, at least do it as a real criminal - in silence. And don't play comedy for us. Okay?

I and many others live by honor. For us our honor is more precious than our lives. And your misusage of this word feels insulting.

Before I became a Federal marine then a capsuleer I was a templar what I did was far from honorable I was given orders to kill pillage and enslave when I decided that was dishonorable I left them and never looked back and the way some of me comrades were "recruited"(brainwashed into the amarrian faith) was far from honorable
Slayer Liberator
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#171 - 2016-08-06 17:22:30 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

The templar were around about 3 years ago and were doing this stuff all the while
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
#172 - 2016-08-06 18:53:57 UTC
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

The templar were around about 3 years ago and were doing this stuff all the while

Kimmy has her own version of history where the Amarr and Caldari can do no wrong and the Gallente and Minmatar are scum. No amount of debate or evidence will change this.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#173 - 2016-08-06 19:26:39 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

The templar were around about 3 years ago and were doing this stuff all the while

Kimmy has her own version of history where the Amarr and Caldari can do no wrong and the Gallente and Minmatar are scum. No amount of debate or evidence will change this.

Oh, we pretty much did a lot of mistakes. And one of the gravest ones was that we've agreed to give capsule technology to CONCORD, that led to your appearance among us.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Slayer Liberator
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#174 - 2016-08-06 20:08:23 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

The templar were around about 3 years ago and were doing this stuff all the while

Kimmy has her own version of history where the Amarr and Caldari can do no wrong and the Gallente and Minmatar are scum. No amount of debate or evidence will change this.

Oh, we pretty much did a lot of mistakes. And one of the gravest ones was that we've agreed to give capsule technology to CONCORD, that led to your appearance among us.

You realize that you are proving her point right?
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
#175 - 2016-08-06 20:08:35 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

The templar were around about 3 years ago and were doing this stuff all the while

Kimmy has her own version of history where the Amarr and Caldari can do no wrong and the Gallente and Minmatar are scum. No amount of debate or evidence will change this.

Oh, we pretty much did a lot of mistakes. And one of the gravest ones was that we've agreed to give capsule technology to CONCORD, that led to your appearance among us.

Whether they gave it to Concord or not sooner or later it would be in everyone's hands anyways.
Slayer Liberator
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#176 - 2016-08-06 20:43:48 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.

The templar were around about 3 years ago and were doing this stuff all the while

Kimmy has her own version of history where the Amarr and Caldari can do no wrong and the Gallente and Minmatar are scum. No amount of debate or evidence will change this.

Oh, we pretty much did a lot of mistakes. And one of the gravest ones was that we've agreed to give capsule technology to CONCORD, that led to your appearance among us.

Whether they gave it to Concord or not sooner or later it would be in everyone's hands anyways.

But this is Kim's reality Gallente and Minmatar were too stupid to get it without concord giving it to us
Felise Selunix
Keyholder Investment Group
#177 - 2016-08-06 20:58:49 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

The Amarr Empire is one of the most honorable factions in our cluster. This is why they are and not anyone else are our both trusted military and trade allies.

When the Empire promises something, we believe them.

Have you ever seen Templars? Paladins? The whole Amarr military doctrine is built on honor... something that Minmatars still fail to grasp with their infamous Valklears and "Chaos Fighters"... Republicans are savages and primitives, known with their inhumanity and disrespect to other cultures.

Paladins of the Empire defend their homes, families and lands from agressors. While minmatars attack them only to kill, destroy and kidnap.

Would anyone sane leave the law enforcement corporation to join gurista, claiming that law enforces don't have honor?... This is just ridiculous. If you want to go bad and help their savages in their crfiminal acts against the Empire, at least do it as a real criminal - in silence. And don't play comedy for us. Okay?

I and many others live by honor. For us our honor is more precious than our lives. And your misusage of this word feels insulting.


Whew! Things have gotten a bit...general in the discussion since I last checked in.

I'm only speaking from my experience here, but off the top of my head, I can list a number of people who have lied, cheated, stolen, initiated violence unprovoked and acted pretty primitive and let me tell you, they come in every flavor, honey. I've found it unwise and unprofitable to equate honor with familial or cultural background. Especially now in a time where people from all cultures have the ability to interact more frequently. Besides, I think it's a bit more accurate (and honorable!) to judge individuals on their actions in context, rather than rely on lazy caricatures and stereotypes. I'm sure you agree.

A bigger topic for me is that for a thread on the subject of honor, there have sure been a lot of insults thrown around. It's confirming my suspicions about that the entire enterprise of honor is really just an excuse to insult and be insulted in order to engage in fights with people that you'd like to fight.

To borrow Ms. Kim's language, if you just want to fight people that you don't like, why not drop the 'honor' bit and just say that I like hurting people who make me angry? It would be a lot more honest. Food for thought.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
#178 - 2016-08-06 21:55:56 UTC
From what it looks like, she doesn't hate people, her uniform does. Bear in mind the uniform she wears alone from what you can see here. Plenty of others who wear similar uniforms (the exact same one) don't hold her genocidal viewpoints. Judge those who deserve it, not every Amarr is a mindless religous drone, not every Gallante screams "freedom" at the top of their lungs.
Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#179 - 2016-08-07 01:22:32 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.


If you think this conflict ever ended once it started seven hundred years ago, you're sorely mistaken.

This has been one prolonged struggle that has never ended.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Slayer Liberator
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2016-08-07 01:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Slayer Liberator
Jason Galente wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I am not in the mood of playing Captain Obvious for gallentean ignorants, who could read me history textbook about events of about seven hundred years ago and fail to remember what happened just seven years ago.


If you think this conflict ever ended once it started seven hundred years ago, you're sorely mistaken.

This has been one prolonged struggle that has never ended.

This post describes Kim's version of reality when this is closer to reality and her posts on this thread prove that so does this come as a suprise?