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That's some serious dedication to Eve
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Paranoid Loyd
#41 - 2016-07-28 20:39:54 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
They should have all dropped.
Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money.


Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all.

And then send him an EVEmail saying "thanks for paying for my account for the next, like, 90 years."

Roll

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#42 - 2016-07-28 20:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Drago Shouna wrote:
Am I safe in presuming that due to the silence from CCP that they are ok with this? Really?

This is so far from the gaming norm that it's difficult to get a grasp of, it has me staring at the screen wondering what the hell is happening to the game right now.

There has to be something seriously ****** up with anyone even considering running this many accounts, and something even more ****** up with CCP even allowing it.

Like all things market related he is speculating; he is speculating on the assumption that he will make more ISK from selling the injectors than he would do from buying the PLEX to run the account.

He went in big (or probably already had the accounts existing already) and so far this has paid off for him, but I can't see injectors staying this profitable if profitable at all long term. Also I expect that loss wiped out much of his profits so now he is probably back to around break even depending on his exact situation.

Consider also that it takes around 3 months and a couple of billion ISK invested to get an account up to the level in which it can start making profit, and we can see why injectors are still so profitable even months after their release.

If you were considering getting into this now though I'd probably say by the time the accounts get to the level in which they can start making profit injector prices will have fallen and PLEX risen which means little to no profit will be possible.

Like all things, the people that benefited the most from the injector gold rush were the vets who already had numerous accounts to extract SP from. The newer less established players seemed to be the ones who screamed the loudest for this to be implemented along with a couple of either foolish / greedy vets, and now it is pretty clear that what was predicted has come to be, and the result is terrible for newer players who are grinding to pay veteran players for their surplus SP.
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-07-28 20:51:29 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
They should have all dropped.
Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money.


Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all.

And then send him an EVEmail saying "thanks for paying for my account for the next, like, 90 years."

Roll


Of COURSE that's your reaction. Haven't we argued about whether or not PvP players are actually murderous psychoes in real life?

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#44 - 2016-07-28 22:17:26 UTC
"Raging"


You see what goes on in this game a lot is projection. The gankers are the ones who would rage at a loss, but they project, so the assume everybody else does. Many times I contacted their victims, and they didn't care. They just shrug and move on. Sure they might get one person out of many in some audio going on a Mel Gibson rant. That's what they want, and why they will post and share that audio and claim that everybody who is beneath them (a criteria met by not being one of them) is raging over losses.

But we do know that gankers rage - especially when freighter wrecks started getting popped.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Paranoid Loyd
#45 - 2016-07-28 22:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
They should have all dropped.
Why? Everything in game is the same. It's all "bought" with RL money.


Because if I ever kill someone hauling that many injectors or PLEX, I want to immediately use them all.

And then send him an EVEmail saying "thanks for paying for my account for the next, like, 90 years."

Roll


Of COURSE that's your reaction. Haven't we argued about whether or not PvP players are actually murderous psychoes in real life?

My reaction was due to your idioticly shallow response (not to mention your terrible math) to my question. Not sure what PVP players are in RL has to do with anything but no, I don't believe we have.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2016-07-28 23:29:13 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:

My reaction was due to your idioticly shallow response (not to mention your terrible math) to my question. Not sure what PVP players are in RL has to do with anything but no, I don't believe we have.


My "idiotically shallow response"? Have you met me?
Wait... lemme fix that for you.

**attempts to make hair look presentable**
Hi. I'm Jarod Garamonde. I'm nearly always drunk and/or high, and I exhibit habitual obfuscating stupidity. Despite my thirst for confrontation, I am actually a genuinely friendly guy, and I meet very few people I don't like. Pleased to meet you, and look forward to drinking with you during EVE Vegas.
**extends right hand**

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-07-29 03:54:33 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ?

I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors.

Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation.

Ugh

Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with.



DMC


It just needs a solid cap. At 100 mil SP, Injectors stop working completely. Originally, this was being sold as "not unlike trading characters on the character bazaar", but it most definitely is very unlike that. There, you would buy a new character with certain skills, and only certain skills. You got the SP of one character. With injectors, you can take multiple toons, all their SP, and put all that SP into just one. It's not the same, and that creates an imbalance that needs to be addressed. Personally, I'd prefer a cap around 50 mil SP, and I'm saying that as someone with 65+ who has most definitely been taking advantage of skill injectors as they are\, but I would settle for a higher one, but no higher than 100 mil.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2016-07-29 03:57:53 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
"Raging"


You see what goes on in this game a lot is projection. The gankers are the ones who would rage at a loss, but they project, so the assume everybody else does. Many times I contacted their victims, and they didn't care. They just shrug and move on. Sure they might get one person out of many in some audio going on a Mel Gibson rant. That's what they want, and why they will post and share that audio and claim that everybody who is beneath them (a criteria met by not being one of them) is raging over losses.

But we do know that gankers rage - especially when freighter wrecks started getting popped.


That explains all the well-publicised hate and abuse gankers receive frequently then. They're not mad at all, they're just raging cuz raging is fun and relaxing! Amiright?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#49 - 2016-07-29 09:23:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Am I safe in presuming that due to the silence from CCP that they are ok with this? Really?

This is so far from the gaming norm that it's difficult to get a grasp of, it has me staring at the screen wondering what the hell is happening to the game right now.

There has to be something seriously ****** up with anyone even considering running this many accounts, and something even more ****** up with CCP even allowing it.

Why wouldn't CCP be ok with it, What rule is it violating?
EVE is not a single account only game. So if someone wants that many accounts, it's surely up to them as long as they don't Bot.



To run this many accounts it costs the following:

Adding game time per month £2767

Adding per 3 monthly £2584

6 monthly £2307

12 monthly £2077

Plex each account ~£3400 due to the plex sale atm, a lot more when the prices are normal.

You don't invest that much cash without expecting a cash return along the line somewhere.

If this is just to farm plex then I don't believe it's just to get game time, the whole set up stinks.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Memphis Baas
#50 - 2016-07-29 11:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Drago Shouna wrote:

To run this many accounts it costs the following: (approx 6000 / month)
If this is just to farm plex then I don't believe it's just to get game time, the whole set up stinks.


You have to realize that SP farm characters are self-sufficient, in terms of cost. Because of the ISK price difference between PLEX, injectors, and extractors on the in-game market, you can buy 3.9 extractors, sell 3.9 filled injectors, buy a plex, and still be left with a few hundred-million ISK profit, each month, completely in-game.

Which is why it's being done with 277+ accounts, to use economies of scale to turn the hundred-millions of ISK into tens-of-billions / month. Because there is no cash involved, just a lot of market transactions and a lot of clicking to extract skills and reverse-redeem PLEX from in-game to Account Management to activate the subscription.

The demand for skillpoints exceeds the supply so much, that things have remained profitable for quite some time since injectors were introduced. Normally, the price of filled-up skill injectors should have dropped to follow the ups and downs of the PLEX prices, and basically wipe out possible profits, but there's too much demand for that to happen.

EDIT: matter of fact, because he's using market-sourced PLEX for everything, he can activate character multi-training at the same cost as a subscription, so basically he can do it with 3 characters / account, for a total of 830 SP farm characters. Guy could be generating 1600 million skillpoints per month (3200 skill injectors / month).

And he's just one player in a sea of 100,000 or more. And we still have more demand than that, to keep the entire feature profitable.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#51 - 2016-07-29 12:33:23 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:

To run this many accounts it costs the following: (approx 6000 / month)
If this is just to farm plex then I don't believe it's just to get game time, the whole set up stinks.


You have to realize that SP farm characters are self-sufficient, in terms of cost. Because of the ISK price difference between PLEX, injectors, and extractors on the in-game market, you can buy 3.9 extractors, sell 3.9 filled injectors, buy a plex, and still be left with a few hundred-million ISK profit, each month, completely in-game.

Which is why it's being done with 277+ accounts, to use economies of scale to turn the hundred-millions of ISK into tens-of-billions / month. Because there is no cash involved, just a lot of market transactions and a lot of clicking to extract skills and reverse-redeem PLEX from in-game to Account Management to activate the subscription.

The demand for skillpoints exceeds the supply so much, that things have remained profitable for quite some time since injectors were introduced. Normally, the price of filled-up skill injectors should have dropped to follow the ups and downs of the PLEX prices, and basically wipe out possible profits, but there's too much demand for that to happen.

EDIT: matter of fact, because he's using market-sourced PLEX for everything, he can activate character multi-training at the same cost as a subscription, so basically he can do it with 3 characters / account, for a total of 830 SP farm characters. Guy could be generating 1600 million skillpoints per month (3200 skill injectors / month).

And he's just one player in a sea of 100,000 or more. And we still have more demand than that, to keep the entire feature profitable.

And yet people keep arguing with me that EVE isn't pay-to-win - and this is no different than the character bazaar...

I do not fault the OP nor others like him - it is a sound business strategy to farm SP, and exploiting every advantage CCP gives us is a long-standing EVE tradition.... But mass SP farmers are the reason that SP injectors are going to (or have already) become so prolific that EVE really is just another Pay to "Win" game (yes, yes, I know you don't actually win - but look at some other p2w games, you never "win" there either, they just keep finding ways to try to get you to spend money for more and more *competitive advantages*) - with enough SP for anybody who wants any amount they are willing to pay for - at any time.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Memphis Baas
#52 - 2016-07-29 12:49:19 UTC
Shrug.

Most other MMO's offer the ability to create pre-leveled 60 or 70 characters, as they get older and release many expansions that make some of the content obsolete. I look at it as EVE finally joining the rest of the genre in this regard, and catching up with some of the conveniences that are expected nowadays.

And we can already see the effect of this "pay to win" as you call it: a lot more people are flying T2 and T3 ships, because they have the skills to do so. I'm guessing it's easier to get into capitals and supers too.

Have there been fewer wars, less PVP combat, and worse gameplay, because of this? I'd argue no, quite the opposite in fact.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#53 - 2016-07-29 12:54:57 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Shrug.

Most other MMO's offer the ability to create pre-leveled 60 or 70 characters, as they get older and release many expansions that make some of the content obsolete. I look at it as EVE finally joining the rest of the genre in this regard, and catching up with some of the conveniences that are expected nowadays.

And we can already see the effect of this "pay to win" as you call it: a lot more people are flying T2 and T3 ships, because they have the skills to do so. I'm guessing it's easier to get into capitals and supers too.

Have there been fewer wars, less PVP combat, and worse gameplay, because of this? I'd argue no, quite the opposite in fact.

I'm not saying it is the death of the game, just that it is p2w - as you say, just like most other major games these days.

Nor am i saying everyone needs to protest or quit or do anything negative about it.

*I* personally just don't like pay to win games. On general principle. And that is my personal choice to make. I'm not trying to impose it on anybody else... I'm just tired of people who insist on trying to argue that I'm wrong and it isn't a p2w game like any other now - when it clearly is... *shrug*

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Memphis Baas
#54 - 2016-07-29 13:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Well, people are probably arguing about it because there's still a bit of room for argument.

Pay to win is when:

1. You pay to unlock abilities or get powerful items (EVE has this with the skill injectors)
2. You pay to gain invulnerability in combat or negate death (EVE doesn't have this)
3. You pay to unlock access to areas of the game / zones / new content (EVE's expansions are free).

So, some people consider "pay to win" to be only number 2, with 1 and 3 being just "pay to play." So they'll argue with you, but just because they have a different definition of the term p2w.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#55 - 2016-07-29 13:21:08 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Well, people are probably arguing about it because there's still a bit of room for argument.

Pay to win is when:

1. You pay to unlock abilities or get powerful items (EVE has this with the skill injectors)
2. You pay to gain invulnerability in combat or negate death (EVE doesn't have this)
3. You pay to unlock access to areas of the game / zones / new content (EVE's expansions are free).

So, some people consider "pay to win" to be only number 2, with 1 and 3 being just "pay to play." So they'll argue with you, but just because they have a different definition of the term p2w.

You would be surprised at the stances some of them try to take...


As for the rest yeah it is a loosely defined term - though one could certainly argue that for #2 we have PLEX, and for #3 you have to pay every month for the content....so all we were missing was #1.

Personally I will be amazed if they don't also release a direct item that protects you from war for 1 week at a time in the Aur store some time within the next year or so. I won't be here to see it most likely, and maybe I'm just paranoid - but time will tell.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#56 - 2016-07-29 15:00:39 UTC
Dibz wrote:
I hate to be cynical (ok I don't), but I can't imagine anyone bothering to put that much effort into the game for purely in-game rewards.


I've seen people do much more in this game and others. The fact that you and I wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't, even for just in game reward.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#57 - 2016-07-30 11:58:29 UTC
The reality is that buying more computer hardware to run more clients and paying for those clients with cash even before plex was introduced can be said to have been P2W too. As we all know how more characters can influence advancements in Eve.

Yes is it going more and more things that can be min/maxed the same way? Sure. But thats also human nature out of game to do so why is it surprising that CCP or players are doing it? Are they not human as well and obey the basic tenants of human nature?

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#58 - 2016-07-31 13:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
You think someone not raging over the loss of the Victorieux Luxury Yacht with 338 Skill Injectors in cargohold is serious dedication ?

I think the serious dedication is the fact that person has 227 accounts set up to farm Skill Injectors.

Wait, did I say serious dedication ? I meant to say serious exploitation.

Ugh

Personally I think CCP needs to rework the game mechanics for Skill Injectors. Those were originally intended for a character to move SP's from one skill group to another skill group, not bypass the training queue and increase the amount of SP's a character originally had to begin with.



DMC

CCP should just remove skill injectors. They are a cash grab and nothing else.

Furthermore the skill farmers waste tons of PLEX. Their chars never undock, they dont add any value to the sandbox. But they drive up the PLEX price which hurts the people who actualy play the game and need to pay with PLEX.

CCP always talks about getting players into space, making them undock, yet they allow this stupid skill injector farming. They removed passive income sources like static ice belts and AFK ratting in carriers, but they allow skill injector farming. Guess why? Because they earn money with it.
Memphis Baas
#59 - 2016-07-31 15:09:43 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
CCP should just remove skill injectors. They are a cash grab and nothing else.

Furthermore the skill farmers waste tons of PLEX. Their chars never undock, they dont add any value to the sandbox. But they drive up the PLEX price which hurts the people who actualy play the game and need to pay with PLEX.

CCP always talks about getting players into space, making them undock, yet they allow this stupid skill injector farming. They removed passive income sources like static ice belts and AFK ratting in carriers, but they allow skill injector farming. Guess why? Because they earn money with it.


CCP should just remove their major source of profit. It just brings in money, and nothing else.

Furthermore, skill farmers keep the PLEX moving within the economy, to the tune where 4000 PLEX are traded daily. They drive up the PLEX prices; otherwise PLEX prices would fall, and injector prices would continue to remain high, resulting in even more profit for skill farmers. This hurts those who grind ISK in order to play the game for free.

CCP always talks about how great this game is, in order to get more people to pay for it. They closed down ISK faucets to reduce how easy it is to grind ISK and play the game for free, but they allow methods of making ISK that involve paying CCP some cash in the process. Guess why? Because they want to make money.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#60 - 2016-07-31 18:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Fixing SP farms? Will this bring removal of passive SP acquirement? This seem as the viable fix from mechanics standpoint, but it would crash everything else probably.

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ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

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