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The Citadel Experience

Author
Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#1 - 2016-07-26 15:26:54 UTC
Now that the first series of new structures have been out for a short time. I wanted to ask the community your thoughts, and share some observations concerning functionality, fitting, and resource availability as it relates to both building and fitting these structures. I have personally taken a keen interest in these structures primarily due to the "hype" surrounding the advertised functions and capabilities (not intended as a negative viewpoint). Disclaimer! My observations are strictly anecdotal and not necessarily based on numbers and stats.
The first thing that stood out to me was the "Fortizar" class of structures appear to be holding their own. I really thought a great deal more would have been destroyed by this point in their infancy. There are likely numerous reasons for this. I have my own thoughts on this, but would like to hear yours.

The "Astrahus" itself does not appear to faring as well as it's big brother. What stood out while sifting through (zKB) the available data were the various state of the structures fit. Many lacked rigs, while the great majority had open slots. And few, if any had service modules. Is this a result of?:
1. Carelessness or poor planning.
2. Unavailability or pricing issues with Rigs, Modules, etc.
3. Lack of choice in available fitting schemes.
4.Other?

I had my reservations concerning the viability of "Medium" structures when the initial stats first came out. I am still having a difficult time reconciling the advertised "car in every garage" mantra that preceded the medium Citadel introduction with the current day reality of its true functionality. Given the Isk outlay for a "properly fitted" medium Citadel, Its limited functions (other than storing "stuff" and having a standup cloning module) have yet to convince me that it possesses any added value to the game. With that said, my opinion might change as other structures, service modules, functions (mini-mart?) are introduced.

A word on resources. Rigs and Rig materials really need some additional thought. Rigs should not represent such large overall percentage of the structure cost compared to the structures functionality.
Your comments, suggestions or opinions are welcome. I only ask that we keep the conversation civil. That has been somewhat lacking in GD the past several days Ugh

Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#2 - 2016-07-26 15:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sustrai Aditua
I can see their usefulness under certain conditions. I'm not impressed with their useless proliferation in other conditions.

I thought the clone thing was a bit more than amusing. Again, the conditions or situation recommends it or not.

I still don't see the big deal if it's supposed to replace the fabled intosis/POS game within a game.

This adds up to it being no more than a ship that doesn't fly (under most circumstances.) And, the idea of the practically functional POS appeals to me more than this citadel thing.

This has knocked a lot of the shine off null sec for me. If it's to replace the sturdy POS with the aluminum foil ball citadel, something pretty substantial has been lost in more ways than one.

And, yes, that's par for this course.

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.

Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#3 - 2016-07-26 15:53:04 UTC
I think it's a mistake to assume that Citadels were supposed to provide an efficient cost vs. benefit. They actually seem targeted to be ISK sinks and the reward being ego boosting. I've never seen them marketed as anything else. The entire "Build your dreams, wreck their dreams" mantra is proof of that.

If I'm going to read the tea leaves here, the game direction appears to be headed to fixing a balance issue between the mega sized corps/alliances and the smaller, yet vastly more numerous mini-corps. The large alliances/corps have huge ISK stocks, and the small corps don't have such reserves individually but as a whole have a large chunk of the economy sitting unused. I think that tweeks some CCP devs noses the wrong way. So they came up with the entire building process as a way to take ISK reserves out of the game, get people to purchase PLEX to buy something to suit their egos. It handily does both.

Don't write too much into the Citadel line of thinking. Until we see the other structures emerge and change the game play balance, all we're seeing right now is the ISK obliteration process. There's not much to analyze yet.
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
#4 - 2016-07-26 17:57:07 UTC
I think especially small corps underestimate the cost of the fitting when they buy their citadel. So it ends up with an half-baked fitting that never gets completed.
Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#5 - 2016-07-26 20:03:32 UTC
Sustrai Aditua wrote:
I can see their usefulness under certain conditions. I'm not impressed with their useless proliferation in other conditions.

I thought the clone thing was a bit more than amusing. Again, the conditions or situation recommends it or not.

I still don't see the big deal if it's supposed to replace the fabled intosis/POS game within a game.

This adds up to it being no more than a ship that doesn't fly (under most circumstances.) And, the idea of the practically functional POS appeals to me more than this citadel thing.

This has knocked a lot of the shine off null sec for me. If it's to replace the sturdy POS with the aluminum foil ball citadel, something pretty substantial has been lost in more ways than one.

And, yes, that's par for this course.


The "Aluminum foil" Citadel fairly describes the medium structure. I don't have a great deal of faith in its abilities at this point. Thanks for your input.

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#6 - 2016-07-26 20:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
I haven't gotten around to setting one up yet (waiting to see how they handle industry), but I think that many of those Astrahaus kills were from being destroyed during their setup windows.
I don't think you can add rigs or modules until it's completed the set up cycle...correct me if I'm wrong.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#7 - 2016-07-26 20:13:52 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
I think it's a mistake to assume that Citadels were supposed to provide an efficient cost vs. benefit. They actually seem targeted to be ISK sinks and the reward being ego boosting. I've never seen them marketed as anything else. The entire "Build your dreams, wreck their dreams" mantra is proof of that.

If I'm going to read the tea leaves here, the game direction appears to be headed to fixing a balance issue between the mega sized corps/alliances and the smaller, yet vastly more numerous mini-corps. The large alliances/corps have huge ISK stocks, and the small corps don't have such reserves individually but as a whole have a large chunk of the economy sitting unused. I think that tweeks some CCP devs noses the wrong way. So they came up with the entire building process as a way to take ISK reserves out of the game, get people to purchase PLEX to buy something to suit their egos. It handily does both.

Don't write too much into the Citadel line of thinking. Until we see the other structures emerge and change the game play balance, all we're seeing right now is the ISK obliteration process. There's not much to analyze yet.


Thanks
The "Isk sink" is what I see at the moment considering its Cost vs. Functionality.

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#8 - 2016-07-26 20:25:11 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
I haven't gotten around to setting one up yet (waiting to see how they handle industry), but I think that many of those Astrahaus kills were from being destroyed their setup windows.
I don't think you can add rigs or modules until it's completed the set up cycle...correct me if I'm wrong.

--Gadget

You are exactly right. A great number were killed during the anchoring process, a window in which you cannot install rigs and such. I haven't set one up either. Primarily because there is simply no real benefit at this time. I too am awaiting how the industry side will play out. Thanks for the input.

Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#9 - 2016-07-26 20:40:59 UTC
Rovinia wrote:
I think especially small corps underestimate the cost of the fitting when they buy their citadel. So it ends up with an half-baked fitting that never gets completed.


And this is a very important issue for the Eve community. I can understand the eagerness that many of our new players and new player corps experience starting out. In haste to make their mark in Eve, It's all too easy to underestimate the time and material resources needed to reach their goals. And that does not even take into account the ability to defend your assets. I feel that many have been blinded by the cool videos and lofty rhetoric associated with these structures. I am sure it is a tough pill to swallow when you lose one.
Just have to pick yourself up by the bootstraps and keep plugging. After all, this is Eve.Smile
Thanks for the input

Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-07-26 21:22:46 UTC
what irked me the most about them is the cost involved especially as a pos replacement.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.

Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#11 - 2016-07-26 23:40:36 UTC
ugh zug wrote:
what irked me the most about them is the cost involved especially as a pos replacement.

Yeah, the cost is ridiculous.
Paranoid Loyd
#12 - 2016-07-26 23:44:26 UTC
#nopoors

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2016-07-27 05:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Max Fubarticus wrote:
The "Astrahus" itself does not appear to faring as well as it's big brother. What stood out while sifting through (zKB) the available data were the various state of the structures fit. Many lacked rigs, while the great majority had open slots. And few, if any had service modules. Is this a result of?:
1. Carelessness or poor planning.
2. Unavailability or pricing issues with Rigs, Modules, etc.
3. Lack of choice in available fitting schemes.
4.Other?

4. Destroyed during the first repair cycle after anchoring (the unfitted ones at least).

Astrahus are more likely to be anchored by smaller entities that cannot adequately defend the citadel. If they manage to get past that, they are also less likely to afford a full fit. T2 rigs are extremely expensive too.
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#14 - 2016-07-27 06:38:51 UTC
If one lives in High, Low or NPC Null sec (that isnt Great Wildlands), NPC Station is far better option. Thats my citadel experience. Blink
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#15 - 2016-07-27 07:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
This is the same thing said when they first got released. And I will point out the very same thing I did back then...they're not done yet. CCP will likely be adding more and more features and functions to Citadels over time. Once they are confident the bugs and issues with them fundamentally have been ironed out, more complex systems, variants, and modules will come online. For instance, I pretty sure even the Dev blogs that initially showcased what CCP intended with Citadels before their release hinted at several weapons systems and other defensive modules that are not out yet. The Industrial Structure (for lack of a more accurate name) has yet to be released, but we know it's coming.

I don't disagree that the current Citadel presence is very underwhelming and largely lacks practical use, especially when compared to the POS' and even Outposts and Stations they are meant to eventually replace. However, let's not get too far ahead just yet. I'm sure that, if they were ever asked and were to answer, any Dev would agree that Citadels are not yet a done deal and there is more to come. They've already several times openly stated that you still need to use a POS for POS related jobs.

Consider this; Would you guys rather them slap everything together, bugs and all, and release it all in one go and then move on after spending a couple weeks, several if we're honestly lucky, fixing a few bugs? Or would you rather CCP release something as complex as the Citadels in their expected finished form step-by-step while giving CCP time in between each major release to fix the fewer bugs that exists in the previous step's content as time permits?

tl:dr
Everyone here is right for what's been said. Citadels are still likely considered by the Devs as WIP, though.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Freedom7
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-07-27 12:10:52 UTC
Definitely still WIP .....
Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#17 - 2016-07-27 16:01:37 UTC
Many thanks for the insightful replies. I was not "too far" off the mark in my personal observations as it appears. But like many have said, time will tell as more structures and features are rolled out.

Thanks

Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#18 - 2016-07-27 16:14:42 UTC
your complaint about pricing and availability, this is because players are making them. you want them more available and priced lower? then buy the bp's make and sell your own. you cna force the price down by selling stuff at below cost (you make no profit) this will drive other players to do the same which will intern lower the base stuff needed to make it, and in turn you;d eventually make a profit. However you will lose a **** ton of money waititng for the price to plundge. But thats how a free market works.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Max Fubarticus
K Diamond Holding LTD.
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#19 - 2016-07-27 17:05:35 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
your complaint about pricing and availability, this is because players are making them. you want them more available and priced lower? then buy the bp's make and sell your own. you cna force the price down by selling stuff at below cost (you make no profit) this will drive other players to do the same which will intern lower the base stuff needed to make it, and in turn you;d eventually make a profit. However you will lose a **** ton of money waititng for the price to plundge. But thats how a free market works.


Not so much a complaint, more of an observation imo. We have said BPO's for the Citadel structures, components, rigs, etc. so we know all to well how it worksBig smile The same goes for market trading. But thanks just the same. We are still looking at the market trends and volumes for the raw materials used to produce the rigs. It is based upon these indices that we are seeing (and predicting) a tendency towards a supply bottleneck in raw materials (salvage) used to build these rigs. Everything we are seeing is the demand for rigs are outpacing the supply of materials used to manufacture them. As I said in the initial posting, these observations are more anecdotal than statistically based. Thanks for you views.

Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.

Morn Hylund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-07-28 22:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Morn Hylund
Browsing through recent killboards, it appears the Astrahus (those that have been fitted, and usually in C2 Wormhole space) is an easy 2+ billion Isk kill for small gangs (1.3b for the Astrahus, another 1b+ for modules).

Perhaps the most surprising data is that none of the gangs attacking an Astrahus seem to take any ship losses whatsoever. At least from the killboard reports I've seen.

Unless you have a fleet standing by at every 3 hour vulnerability period for your Astrahus, which admittedly, most small corps or wormhole dwellers probably do not - it's pretty much kiss your 2+ billion investment goodbye - if some small party wants to have some gang bang fun.

I'm not sure how this fosters or incentivizes more exploration of Wormhole space or how this helps the game in general.
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