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Crime & Punishment

 
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Feasibility of ganking a skiff.

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Mortlake
Republic Military School
#61 - 2016-07-25 10:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortlake
The sea-based cone snail is one of the most deadly creatures in the world with a single fart able to cause death. The mule on the other hand has only 63 chromasomes and cannot reproduce works of fine art.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#62 - 2016-07-25 11:15:02 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
The mule on the other hand has only 63 chromasomes and cannot reproduce works of fine art.

Can we leave tracey emin out of this please mort, itw way too early in the day.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#63 - 2016-07-25 11:45:53 UTC
The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#64 - 2016-07-25 12:03:30 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere?


There's not much point in having an Orca around these days apart from using it as a hauler.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#65 - 2016-07-25 12:21:51 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it.


What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable.

I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#66 - 2016-07-25 12:24:35 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it.

Not in terms of ganking...but the skiff is definitely OP...

I mean seriously... Look at the stats

When we have a *mining ship* that gets similar *combat stats* to a T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser.....AND IT CAN STILL MINE ICE AT THE SAME TIME.... It is OP...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#67 - 2016-07-25 12:26:45 UTC
I enjoy this thread a lot

Evil RatKid
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#68 - 2016-07-25 12:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Mortlake wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it.


What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable.

I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with.


Fun of course they are fun to gank, its a challenge, do it with friends!

As for being profitable, that is a decision by CCP that T2 fitted ships are not meant to be profitable to gank if its just the ship and its T2 fits.

The problem is that most gankers see them as too difficult and don't bother and whine about it and call for nerfs so they can get easy kills, simple really.

EDIT: The other ships are out of line, their tanks are at the level of a wet paper bag

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Crinnfika
Doomheim
#69 - 2016-07-25 19:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Crinnfika
Black Pedro wrote:

but the typical T2- tanked Skiff that the game is balanced around is hilariously unprofitable to gank. Not even just unprofitable as most miners are to gank, but so costly you lose more than your opponent leaving you with nothing you can do to inflict more damage on your opponent than you lose.


And then comes the realization that T2-fitting combat ships aren't profitable to gank either. You act like skiffs are the only ships that can't be profitably ganked, when in reality most ships aren't "economically viable to gank."

If you want to pick on ships for their difficulty to gank, you should go after Augoror Navy Issue because that things tank puts skiffs to shame.


Black Pedro wrote:

Last year, CCP banned ISBoxer in an attempt to lower the hard cap on the number of clients players could run at one time. This year, they explicitly started enforcing the prohibition on tiling multiple clients on a single screen that was so favoured by cheating multiboxing miners to boost their efficiency. Just because mining has always been this way does not mean there isn't a serious problem with the game design when the only way to compete is to multibox more Skiffs.

Have some imagination. It doesn't have to be this way even if it has been this way for so long. There are many fixes that can be put in place to boost the viability of single account miners and do away with the tedium of multiboxing mining fleets and make a better, more engaging game for everyone. Certainly, I am sure CCP is unhappy with the current meta of the invulnerable Skiff fleets piloted by a single veteran taking so much of the profit and leaving new and solo miners with so little.

Well then if what you say is true we ought to have seen a upward shift in ore prices after the multiboxer crackdown.

Except oh wait the price of ore wasn't affected, at least not in any way large enough to distinguish it from standard price fluctuations. In fact in the past year the price of ore has gone down. hmmmm


Quote:
I have no problem with multiboxers who play by the rules (although, it should be noted that miners are notorious for using methods to cheat such as input broadcasting, client tiling and straight-out macros) but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with the game.

Ah but that is not exclusive to miners. Heck I can think of a gank corp that use input broadcasted catalyst gangs. Something you probably are not aware of, since you tunnel vision so much on us darn evil miners.

Quote:
I notice you did not refute any of my points illustrating how difficult it is for a new or solo miner and this is a problem for CCP who are desperately trying to get new players into the game. Something has to give, and with Drilling Platforms on the horizon, mining is due for a shake up.

And you've failed to explain to me how making miners more vulnerable is going to help said solo miners.

Ganks hurt solo miners way more than multiboxers, because has you have pointed out repeatedly solo miners don't have the isk/hour that multiboxing has, which means getting ganked puts solo miners way farther back.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#70 - 2016-07-29 02:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Dracvlad wrote:
Mortlake wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it.


What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable.

I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with.


Fun of course they are fun to gank, its a challenge, do it with friends!

As for being profitable, that is a decision by CCP that T2 fitted ships are not meant to be profitable to gank if its just the ship and its T2 fits.

The problem is that most gankers see them as too difficult and don't bother and whine about it and call for nerfs so they can get easy kills, simple really.

EDIT: The other ships are out of line, their tanks are at the level of a wet paper bag

The other barges have dscan tank and local tank.

The skiff has:
Dscan tank
Local tank
Speed tank
Buffer tank <- the reason skiffs can usually ignore gankers
DPS tank

A signature :o
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#71 - 2016-07-29 10:21:19 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Mortlake wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it.


What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable.

I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with.


Fun of course they are fun to gank, its a challenge, do it with friends!

As for being profitable, that is a decision by CCP that T2 fitted ships are not meant to be profitable to gank if its just the ship and its T2 fits.

The problem is that most gankers see them as too difficult and don't bother and whine about it and call for nerfs so they can get easy kills, simple really.

EDIT: The other ships are out of line, their tanks are at the level of a wet paper bag

The other barges have dscan tank and local tank.

The skiff has:
Dscan tank
Local tank
Speed tank
Buffer tank <- the reason skiffs can usually ignore gankers
DPS tank


The Procurer has a buffer tank too, the others are all rubbish in terms of tank and need adjustment

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
afk phone
Repo Industries
#72 - 2016-07-29 10:35:00 UTC
There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module.

This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge)

If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found.
Liek DarZ
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#73 - 2016-07-29 11:22:32 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Procurer has a buffer tank too, the others are all rubbish in terms of tank and need adjustment

Or maybe, just maybe, the other ships do not focus on tank? So that the choice you make is a meaningful one - tank, yield or cargo. You know, that was the original idea CCP had when re-balancing the three tiers for barges/exhumers a few years ago.

Make a choice - obviously, if you want tank, Procurer/Skiff is the way to go.

Why would anyone be entitled to get a Mack/Hulk/Covetor/Retriever with more tank? Their focus is on a different aspect of the ship already. If they all got tanky, the Procurer/Skiff strength would be a less pronounced one.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#74 - 2016-07-29 11:31:11 UTC
Liek DarZ wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Procurer has a buffer tank too, the others are all rubbish in terms of tank and need adjustment

Or maybe, just maybe, the other ships do not focus on tank? So that the choice you make is a meaningful one - tank, yield or cargo. You know, that was the original idea CCP had when re-balancing the three tiers for barges/exhumers a few years ago.

Make a choice - obviously, if you want tank, Procurer/Skiff is the way to go.

Why would anyone be entitled to get a Mack/Hulk/Covetor/Retriever with more tank? Their focus is on a different aspect of the ship already. If they all got tanky, the Procurer/Skiff strength would be a less pronounced one.


To be honest I think the balance is right on mining ships like you do. But if they want to see less Skiffs and Procurers because of reasons, such as uniformity in heavily ganked systems, if that is the case then the other ships need better tanks.

My view is still that the balance of mining ships is about right. You will never see me in a Hulk, Coveter, Mackinaw or Retriever because I don't like to be an easy kill, I accept a lower yield. Some people operate the other ships fitted for yield and it is a valid choice in systems that do not see people like you, which is fine.

Good to see you see it like that. Big smile Good post.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#75 - 2016-07-29 11:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
afk phone wrote:
There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module.

This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge)

If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found.

Yes.....lets take my skiff, which is *already the combat equivalent of a Heavy Assault Cruiser*....and give it a module to make it 5 TIMES harder to kill....Basically the equivalent of a fully pimped out T3 cruiser fit for buffer....

Nothing could possibly go wrong with that...

[/sarcasm]


edit: I realize I'm in the weird minority that uses mining ships to mine other players during wardecs/etc rather than a traditional miner...but if you keep making these ships the single most powerful PvP ships in all of EVE I'm not going to be in the minority much longer...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#76 - 2016-07-29 11:47:56 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
afk phone wrote:
There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module.

This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge)

If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found.

Yes.....lets take my skiff, which is *already the combat equivalent of a Heavy Assault Cruiser*....and give it a module to make it 5 TIMES harder to kill....Basically the equivalent of a fully pimped out T3 cruiser fit for buffer....

Nothing could possibly go wrong with that...

[/sarcasm]


edit: I realize I'm in the weird minority that uses mining ships to mine other players during wardecs/etc rather than a traditional miner...but if you keep making these ships the single most powerful PvP ships in all of EVE I'm not going to be in the minority much longer...


I agree, we need to get away from this type of destroy each others game play black and white crap, I know that one part of me thinks that the gankers deserve something like this for mining ships having the tank of a wet paper bag for two and a half years after destroyers had their DPS buffed but no, destructive nerf / buff circles are not a good idea with the state of the user base, I certainly could not support anything like this just like you.

The balance that he suggested 100m to 100m is not really any balance, the real balance you have to look at more than anything else is time and effort in the environment of hisec. I can see the point of view from the gankers that a max tanked skiff at 20 Catalysts is well not going to happen unless someone makes an especially important effort, however a poorly tanked Skiff is 8 Catalysts and we have seen them ganked.

I feel that COE could come after me because I am a pain to them, but they have to make a special effort to kil me and that is fair, I certainly do not want to get back to the previous situation in that I refused to mine because all the mining ships were an utter joke. Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#77 - 2016-07-29 11:59:56 UTC
Ironically the easiest way to get CCP to re-balance the hulk, mackinaw, retriever, and covetor would be to follow the advice CODE. has been spouting all along.

No not the silly mining permit part.

Not even the being at the keyboard and paying careful attention "at all times" part...

The flying *only* fully tanked procurers + skiffs bit. And if you must use an orca - fully tanking it and relying on the fleet hangar for storage space.

Would the short term profits of miners drop? Yes, yes they would. But *if* you could get 90+% of miners on-board with this strategy - CCP's analysts would see that people were only using 2 mining ships and ignoring the other 4, and they would rush to "rebalance" the system in an effort to get people to actually use the other ships again. They *do* track these things - and they do seem to care about people not all using the exact same ship/fit.



Also - mostly unrelated, but fun fact for miners: Although I realize it runs the risk of drifting off into space if you go afk and don't notice when it goes away - if you just fit a 1mn mwd to your procurer/skiff (almost no fitting required) and orbit the rock you are mining, you are nearly impossible to gank without an initial suicide tackle to shut your MWD off - which will both start the timer to call CONCORD in *before the dps ships are on grid* - and also buys you some extra time to react before you are actively being hit by the dps ships.

If they try to both tackle and gank you with catalysts in the same move, they are going to lose a lot of dps because catalyst blasters are *very* short range - and by the time your mwd actually shuts off and you slow down they'll be well out of range and have to move to get back in range again....so at the very least you are making it as annoying and expensive as possible for them.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#78 - 2016-07-29 12:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Ironically the easiest way to get CCP to re-balance the hulk, mackinaw, retriever, and covetor would be to follow the advice CODE. has been spouting all along.

No not the silly mining permit part.

Not even the being at the keyboard and paying careful attention "at all times" part...

The flying *only* fully tanked procurers + skiffs bit. And if you must use an orca - fully tanking it and relying on the fleet hangar for storage space.

Would the short term profits of miners drop? Yes, yes they would. But *if* you could get 90+% of miners on-board with this strategy - CCP's analysts would see that people were only using 2 mining ships and ignoring the other 4, and they would rush to "rebalance" the system in an effort to get people to actually use the other ships again. They *do* track these things - and they do seem to care about people not all using the exact same ship/fit.



Also - mostly unrelated, but fun fact for miners: Although I realize it runs the risk of drifting off into space if you go afk and don't notice when it goes away - if you just fit a 1mn mwd to your procurer/skiff (almost no fitting required) and orbit the rock you are mining, you are nearly impossible to gank without an initial suicide tackle to shut your MWD off - which will both start the timer to call CONCORD in *before the dps ships are on grid* - and also buys you some extra time to react before you are actively being hit by the dps ships.

If they try to both tackle and gank you with catalysts in the same move, they are going to lose a lot of dps because catalyst blasters are *very* short range - and by the time your mwd actually shuts off and you slow down they'll be well out of range and have to move to get back in range again....so at the very least you are making it as annoying and expensive as possible for them.


The OP was being very clever in his initial post because he was playing up to CCP's attitude towards people all using the same ship type to meet his objective of reducing the tank of the Skiff. In this and the other threads I pointed out that outside of heavily ganked systems you see a lot less Skiffs, of course I use Skiffs.

My Skiff sits out at around 17 Catalysts, from my prespective I would to be outside the ability of a multi-boxer such as the kusions and a couple of other players and the Skiff meets that requirement. Which is why I would be annoyed if CCP reduced its tank, it would be for me no longer fit for purpose. I want them to have to get a gang to kill me not multi box a load of toons with two players max.

I don't normally leave the ships in space when I go AFK, but with a skiff it moves at around 224 m/s which is really nasty for a Catalyst 's DPS. Perhaps if the speed of the other ships was increased a bit that would help in making them more used.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#79 - 2016-07-29 12:27:22 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The OP was being very clever in his initial post because he was playing up to CCP's attitude towards people all using the same ship type to meet his objective of reducing the tank of the Skiff. In this and the other threads I pointed out that outside of heavily ganked systems you see a lot less Skiffs, of course I use Skiffs.

My Skiff sits out at around 17 Catalysts, from my prespective I would to be outside the ability of a multi-boxer such as the kusions and a couple of other players and the Skiff meets that requirement. Which is why I would be annoyed if CCP reduced its tank, it would be for me no fit for purpose. I want them to have to get a gang to kill me not multi box a load of toons with two players max.

I don't normally leave the ships in space when I go AFK, but with a skiff it moves at around 224 m/s which is really nasty for a Catalyst 's DPS. Perhaps if the speed of the other ships was increased a bit that would help in making them more used.

Aye well fortunately/unfortunately (depends on your point of view I imagine) CCP doesn't listen to forum rants to get *those* statistics - their servers can quite easily track how many people are flying each type of ship lol.

And honestly i see a lot of the non-tanky ships even in systems with gankers...people are quite stubborn in using them.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#80 - 2016-07-29 12:38:50 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The OP was being very clever in his initial post because he was playing up to CCP's attitude towards people all using the same ship type to meet his objective of reducing the tank of the Skiff. In this and the other threads I pointed out that outside of heavily ganked systems you see a lot less Skiffs, of course I use Skiffs.

My Skiff sits out at around 17 Catalysts, from my prespective I would to be outside the ability of a multi-boxer such as the kusions and a couple of other players and the Skiff meets that requirement. Which is why I would be annoyed if CCP reduced its tank, it would be for me no fit for purpose. I want them to have to get a gang to kill me not multi box a load of toons with two players max.

I don't normally leave the ships in space when I go AFK, but with a skiff it moves at around 224 m/s which is really nasty for a Catalyst 's DPS. Perhaps if the speed of the other ships was increased a bit that would help in making them more used.

Aye well fortunately/unfortunately (depends on your point of view I imagine) CCP doesn't listen to forum rants to get *those* statistics - their servers can quite easily track how many people are flying each type of ship lol.

And honestly i see a lot of the non-tanky ships even in systems with gankers...people are quite stubborn in using them.


Funny enough I had a discussion with one in AG channel, I dropped in my not quite max tank Skiff fit and was told nah your yeld is crap, he then dropped in a yield fit Retriever and said I mine in out of the way systems and I use that, if I lose one I make it up very quickly and my yield is a lot better than yours.

I was like yeah, sounds like a fair strategy.

Yeah CCP will be keeping an eye on it at the server level, but they do read their forums at times.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp