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High Sec Pos Takedown
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2012-01-16 01:59:41 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
Quote:


Dunno, but a Leviathon (which gets some nice DPS bonuses) applies 158 of its 8234 dps (5 BC2, 6 Citadel Torp launchers) to a target moving 180m/s(~Drake) with a sig of 230 (~Drake). Against a Stealth Bomber, it applies 30 DPS. And this is before resistances.


You sound like you have experience with what you're talking about. Maybe the battleclinic calculator is bugged? Can somebody who understands the math run the numbers?


I just used Pyfa's numbers.

Besides. Missile batteries use CPU and thus go offline when your POS goes into RF. Others don't.

Lasers on Amarr towers, Projectiles on others. And go one size down. A Large turret won't hit BS well, but a Medium will, and Smalls + Webs are good against small stuff. But you need POS gunners. If you're not going to have POS gunners, a couple of Logi will keep everyone happy and firing. So just fill it with ECM and hardeners.

Or better yet, put nothing outside, use all your fittings for useful stuff and decshield.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-01-16 02:49:17 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:
Quote:


Dunno, but a Leviathon (which gets some nice DPS bonuses) applies 158 of its 8234 dps (5 BC2, 6 Citadel Torp launchers) to a target moving 180m/s(~Drake) with a sig of 230 (~Drake). Against a Stealth Bomber, it applies 30 DPS. And this is before resistances.


You sound like you have experience with what you're talking about. Maybe the battleclinic calculator is bugged? Can somebody who understands the math run the numbers?


I just used Pyfa's numbers.

Besides. Missile batteries use CPU and thus go offline when your POS goes into RF. Others don't.

Lasers on Amarr towers, Projectiles on others. And go one size down. A Large turret won't hit BS well, but a Medium will, and Smalls + Webs are good against small stuff. But you need POS gunners. If you're not going to have POS gunners, a couple of Logi will keep everyone happy and firing. So just fill it with ECM and hardeners.

Or better yet, put nothing outside, use all your fittings for useful stuff and decshield.


My worry is that my little one man corp will get decced and I'll be so busy with grad school I won't check in until three days after the war goes active. I am aware that, in everything but missiles, oversizing is a bad idea. I'm trying to figure out if CCP did something with the citadel torp launchers to compensate for the generally suckyness of missile sentries (by giving us something that would be descent one size category down). I have to say the more I look at it the more I think battleclinic is bugged.
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-01-16 03:40:44 UTC
I would honestly be very surprised if anyone bothered your one man corp or its tower, unless the tower is in a particularly nice spot. Just find some quiet system somewhere. I've had a tower up for almost three years (though mostly offline), and no one has ever sent a war dec my way.

Most high-sec war-dec corps are in it for the lulz. A one man corp won't offer enough in the way of targets to make it worth their while.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#24 - 2012-01-16 04:35:54 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:
Quote:


Dunno, but a Leviathon (which gets some nice DPS bonuses) applies 158 of its 8234 dps (5 BC2, 6 Citadel Torp launchers) to a target moving 180m/s(~Drake) with a sig of 230 (~Drake). Against a Stealth Bomber, it applies 30 DPS. And this is before resistances.


You sound like you have experience with what you're talking about. Maybe the battleclinic calculator is bugged? Can somebody who understands the math run the numbers?


I just used Pyfa's numbers.

Besides. Missile batteries use CPU and thus go offline when your POS goes into RF. Others don't.

Lasers on Amarr towers, Projectiles on others. And go one size down. A Large turret won't hit BS well, but a Medium will, and Smalls + Webs are good against small stuff. But you need POS gunners. If you're not going to have POS gunners, a couple of Logi will keep everyone happy and firing. So just fill it with ECM and hardeners.

Or better yet, put nothing outside, use all your fittings for useful stuff and decshield.


My worry is that my little one man corp will get decced and I'll be so busy with grad school I won't check in until three days after the war goes active. I am aware that, in everything but missiles, oversizing is a bad idea. I'm trying to figure out if CCP did something with the citadel torp launchers to compensate for the generally suckyness of missile sentries (by giving us something that would be descent one size category down). I have to say the more I look at it the more I think battleclinic is bugged.


Just use Evemon to check for a wardec mail everyday (might even be able to set it to email you that notification).

Missiles oversize even worse then turrets do. If your small target sit still v huge turret = huge damage. Small target vs Huge missile = meh damage.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#25 - 2012-01-16 05:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
Jas Dor wrote:


My worry is that my little one man corp will get decced and I'll be so busy with grad school I won't check in until three days after the war goes active. I am aware that, in everything but missiles, oversizing is a bad idea. I'm trying to figure out if CCP did something with the citadel torp launchers to compensate for the generally suckyness of missile sentries (by giving us something that would be descent one size category down). I have to say the more I look at it the more I think battleclinic is bugged.


As RubyPorto says - EVEMon is your answer. Wardec notifications do come through if you tell EVEMon to notify you of those. So do "low fuel" notifications, office rentals, and a bunch of other notification messages. Just have it send you an email on certain alerts, or make a habit to check EVEMon daily, or have it be "in your face" with its alerts down in the system tray.

Unless your tower is within 4 jumps of a trade-hub or in The Forge, it will probably never be attacked in hi-sec. As long as you don't make enemies in-game, don't step on someone's toes and don't occupy a moon that somebody wants, nobody is going to bother. A big old d-star setup on a large tower shows that you're at least semi-serious about making it a pain to dislodge (think 60-75 ECM, 20-40 small/medium guns, 13 hardeners, and a few webs / scrams / disrupts). A determined attacker will pull it off, but not before you can evac labs/arrays, leaving them with only about 600M ISK worth of stuff to shoot at.

Or go with the (1) small tower w/ (3) labs and just take it down if dec'd. Keep your BPOs safe in the station, don't put too much out in the labs. Worst case, you're out 250-300M if it gets blown up.

(My tower configs have spares that don't get put online until some get blown up. During peace time, you can leave 90% of it offline and just run the labs or anything that doesn't use CPU.)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#26 - 2012-01-16 06:50:30 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:


My worry is that my little one man corp will get decced and I'll be so busy with grad school I won't check in until three days after the war goes active. I am aware that, in everything but missiles, oversizing is a bad idea. I'm trying to figure out if CCP did something with the citadel torp launchers to compensate for the generally suckyness of missile sentries (by giving us something that would be descent one size category down). I have to say the more I look at it the more I think battleclinic is bugged.


As RubyPorto says - EVEMon is your answer. Wardec notifications do come through if you tell EVEMon to notify you of those. So do "low fuel" notifications, office rentals, and a bunch of other notification messages. Just have it send you an email on certain alerts, or make a habit to check EVEMon daily, or have it be "in your face" with its alerts down in the system tray.

Unless your tower is within 4 jumps of a trade-hub or in The Forge, it will probably never be attacked in hi-sec. As long as you don't make enemies in-game, don't step on someone's toes and don't occupy a moon that somebody wants, nobody is going to bother. A big old d-star setup on a large tower shows that you're at least semi-serious about making it a pain to dislodge (think 60-75 ECM, 20-40 small/medium guns, 13 hardeners, and a few webs / scrams / disrupts). A determined attacker will pull it off, but not before you can evac labs/arrays, leaving them with only about 600M ISK worth of stuff to shoot at.

Or go with the (1) small tower w/ (3) labs and just take it down if dec'd. Keep your BPOs safe in the station, don't put too much out in the labs. Worst case, you're out 250-300M if it gets blown up.

(My tower configs have spares that don't get put online until some get blown up. During peace time, you can leave 90% of it offline and just run the labs or anything that doesn't use CPU.)


I really don't see the use of PoS dps guns without gunners. They just don't do anything. Now on a nullsec POS, a bunch of small batterys and webs can be fun. Grab controls and *Pop* *Pop* *Pop* go the expensive fighter bombers.

Bob does make an important point. You're only down what you anchor if you're wardecced and don't pull it down/decshield. BoB and I draw very different conclusions.If there's nothing to keep the enemy fleet anchored, nothing will happen while you tear down or decshield. Bob's suggestion might let you avoid decs, but you're giving up the total immunity to losing your tower.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#27 - 2012-01-16 09:32:00 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
I really don't see the use of PoS dps guns without gunners. They just don't do anything. Now on a nullsec POS, a bunch of small batterys and webs can be fun. Grab controls and *Pop* *Pop* *Pop* go the expensive fighter bombers

It's more about denying them options. A bit of tackle and dps forces any attacker to fit some degree of tank. And it means disengaging is a pain. If you have neither tackle nor dps, they will try to shoot the tower without any risk. If you fit both, the last guy off the field is going to get pointed and lose his ship unless they start jettisoning shuttles and the like.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#28 - 2012-01-16 11:04:17 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I really don't see the use of PoS dps guns without gunners. They just don't do anything. Now on a nullsec POS, a bunch of small batterys and webs can be fun. Grab controls and *Pop* *Pop* *Pop* go the expensive fighter bombers

It's more about denying them options. A bit of tackle and dps forces any attacker to fit some degree of tank. And it means disengaging is a pain. If you have neither tackle nor dps, they will try to shoot the tower without any risk. If you fit both, the last guy off the field is going to get pointed and lose his ship unless they start jettisoning shuttles and the like.


I'd have to be pretty motivated to bother with a 50+ EWAR tower in hisec (I'd have to be pretty motivated to bother with any online tower in hisec for that matter).

Lock Tower > Shoot Once > Jammed > Unjammed > Lock Tow... > Jammed > Unj.... > Jammed....

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mnengli Noiliffe
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-01-16 11:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe
just choose a moon in a system with low traffic, with about half moons vacant, 0.7 sec status, and don't use corp with too many members.

this way griefers won't even see your moon and no one will ever want it since there are many other moons in the same system, plus the amount of people who are interested is severely limited by 7 standing to a faction requirement.

oh and make that an underused faction like galllente, since everyone runs missions for caldari anyway.

a few other suggestions ..

1. don't keep it up all the time. use NPC facilities instead when possible. if that's not too profit limiting that is...

2. use corps made of research alts for hosting the POS. they only sit in a station setting up jobs occasionally so they are not griefer target material.

3. don't defend the POS, or don't put up defences visible. griefers will know you'll just remove POS when wardecced and they'll see they are not going to get any thrill from destroying that POS.

4. to be able to remove POS at any time, avoid setting up too long jobs, so you don't lose much if you have to remove POS with jobs active.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-01-16 11:33:26 UTC
Nobody bothers with a tower that has a couple of tackle mods and some dps combined with bunch of ECM unless they actually really want to take it down, at which point it is irrelevant as to what you have there.

Some dps + tackle means that to take out the tower without losses you need logis and you need to shoot the tackle mods *and* RF the tower (or you lose ships). ECM also presents a bunch of mods you probably have to shoot first or you get very very annoyed with the constant loss of lock.

All this makes the process of taking out the tower as something not doable with a small 5-10 man gang.

If someone brings considerably more and really wants the tower gone, it is gone. Nothing you do short of bringing your own big fleet (hire mercs?) is going to prevent it. Protip: do not give a cause for anyone to really want it gone. Don't smacktalk people into getting pissed off at you etc.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#31 - 2012-01-16 12:08:37 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:

If someone brings considerably more and really wants the tower gone, it is gone. Nothing you do short of bringing your own big fleet (hire mercs?) is going to prevent it. Protip: do not give a cause for anyone to really want it gone. Don't smacktalk people into getting pissed off at you etc.


Decshield. If you have no mods outside the shields, your POS cannot be killed if you can log in once a day.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#32 - 2012-01-16 12:31:25 UTC
A POS with labs and the corp doesnt have an office in system it worth everything.

The chances for BPOs in the labs are rather high.

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#33 - 2012-01-16 12:33:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Decshield. If you have no mods outside the shields, your POS cannot be killed if you can log in once a day.

You can easily work around decshield by using two separate corps to wardec, and moving all characters from one to the other. One declares war and reinforces the tower, the other waits until the tower is reinforced and the target out of decshield to wardec. Remember there is a 24 hour cooldown between applying to an alliance and actually joining, and another one before the war expires on leaving.

If someone wants to kill your POS, they will. It's just a matter of how much work they are willing to do and how much they are willing to pay.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-01-16 12:41:28 UTC
Ynot Eyob wrote:
A POS with labs and the corp doesnt have an office in system it worth everything.

The chances for BPOs in the labs are rather high.


Okay this this is true. I didn't account for... umm... "silly"... setups. I guess stupidity being about as common as hydrogen in the universe, there are POSes like that too.

There is no reason to have a BPO at the POS outside wormhole space. Ever.
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#35 - 2012-01-16 12:54:25 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Okay this this is true. I didn't account for... umm... "silly"... setups. I guess stupidity being about as common as hydrogen in the universe, there are POSes like that too.

There is no reason to have a BPO at the POS outside wormhole space. Ever.


And yet, SO many put their BPOs within the labs because they dont know any better Ugh

We attacked a POS not long ago which dropped a decent ammout of Cap BPOs

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-01-16 13:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyniac
Jas Dor wrote:
What makes a POS in high sec worth deccing the owning corp and attacking? What tactics are used to hit the POS? What is the bar to making something to hard to be worth it?


Most people have failed to address a key aspect here - In my experience the main aspect which results in a corp being attacked for their POS is if griefers believe they can extort some nice iskies from you.

Keeping a POS at a reasonable level of value and keeping a POS out of the way are two excellent ways to avoid this. Some systems are asking for trouble, other systems are quiet as can be.

Pick your location carefully and you should be fine (I know of towers that have been up for years undisturbed...)


Oh and... don't use the citadel torps in highsec - ever. Once I was tasked with defending a POS that had those things for defense... the attackers didn't even bother to take down the missile batteries (and yes, it was a Caldari POS) because the damage they did was so pathetic... even with two gunners aiming the things (8 batteries focussing fire) we could not kill a battleship with them... so just ignore them.
Bent Barrel
#37 - 2012-01-16 14:24:03 UTC
interesting thread ... however I am wondering about one thing ... Dreads in hihgsec ? how ? aren't they restricted to lowsec/zerosec ?
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-01-16 15:06:52 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
interesting thread ... however I am wondering about one thing ... Dreads in hihgsec ? how ? aren't they restricted to lowsec/zerosec ?


Why? Battleships kill POSes just fine.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#39 - 2012-01-16 23:02:16 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Decshield. If you have no mods outside the shields, your POS cannot be killed if you can log in once a day.

You can easily work around decshield by using two separate corps to wardec, and moving all characters from one to the other. One declares war and reinforces the tower, the other waits until the tower is reinforced and the target out of decshield to wardec. Remember there is a 24 hour cooldown between applying to an alliance and actually joining, and another one before the war expires on leaving.

If someone wants to kill your POS, they will. It's just a matter of how much work they are willing to do and how much they are willing to pay.


There's currently a bug with the implementation. From the DecShield Alliance Page:
" It is currently a bug that a corporation leaving an alliance cannot be wardecced until after the next downtime. Please use this knowledge to your advantage and leave the alliance right after a downtime for maximum effect."

Since you can't have war declared against you until the DT after you drop from alliance, it's trivial to make sure you come out of RF in the warmup period of the next war.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-01-17 07:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jas Dor
Hum DecShield seems like a good short term solution, though I'm not sure I trust CCP not to change game mechanics to keep it from working in the long run.

Does anyone have experience with energy neuts on a high sec POS? Once I would have said that they are not worth it, but CCP seems to have changed up the stats since then. Also how likely is a POS to be engaged at range. I'm wondering if I really need beam laser (on the other hand without them the thing lacks DPS out past 90km).

For a POS with active assembly arrays (i.e. not a lab POS) how does this look as a defensive setup?

Test please ignore < >[0]{}
Amarr Control Tower
Ballistic Deflection Array [ 2 ] -- Online
Explosion Dampening Array [ 1 ] -- Online
Heat Dissipation Array [ 3 ] -- Online
Photon Scattering Array [ 3 ] -- Online
Ion Field Projection Battery [ 5 ] -- Online
Phase Inversion Battery [ 5 ] -- Online
Spatial Destabilization Battery [ 5 ] -- Online
White Noise Generation Battery [ 10 ] -- Online
Stasis Webification Battery [ 1 ] -- Online
Small Pulse Laser Battery [ 2 ] -- Online
Warp Scrambling Battery [ 1 ] -- Online
Shadow Warp Disruption Battery [ 2 ] -- Online
Medium Pulse Laser Battery [ 7 ] -- Online
Medium Beam Laser Battery [ 2 ] -- Online
Dark Blood Energy Neutralizing Battery [ 1 ] -- Online
Domination Medium AutoCannon Battery [ 2 ] -- Online
Enriched Uranium [ 96 ][ 144m3 ]
Oxygen [ 600 ][ 228m3 ]
Mechanical Parts [ 120 ][ 180m3 ]
Coolant [ 192 ][ 288m3 ]
Robotics [ 24 ][ 144m3 ]
Helium Isotopes [ 10,800 ][ 1,620m3 ]
Heavy Water [ 2,424 ][ 969.6m3 ]
Liquid Ozone [ 3,240 ][ 1,296m3 ]
Transport Volume: 64,369.6 m3
Total Cost : 491,821,000 isk
Anchor Time : 31 m, 20 s
Online Time : 1 h, 2 m, 30 s
Total Assembly : 1 h, 33 m, 50 s
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