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Crime & Punishment

 
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A looter's trick that circumvents suspect timers.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#41 - 2016-07-20 15:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Making the loot carry the flag instead of the act is certainly possible, it would involve an extra database field for every single item in the game to carry the illegally/legally looted flag, unfortunately the overhead on the database would be prohibitive and cause more problems than it solves.

TL;DR CCP could fix it, but it's not necessarily a good idea for them to do so.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#42 - 2016-07-20 18:04:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Making the loot instead of the act is certainly possible, it would involve an extra database field for every single item in the game to carry the illegally/legally looted flag, unfortunately the overhead on the database would be prohibitive and cause more problems than it solves.

TL;DR CCP could fix it, but it's not necessarily a good idea for them to do so.

Don't worry, there are much less ressource intensive ways to implement this.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Valkin Mordirc
#43 - 2016-07-20 18:25:20 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Making the loot instead of the act is certainly possible, it would involve an extra database field for every single item in the game to carry the illegally/legally looted flag, unfortunately the overhead on the database would be prohibitive and cause more problems than it solves.

TL;DR CCP could fix it, but it's not necessarily a good idea for them to do so.

Don't worry, there are much less ressource intensive ways to implement this.



Since you seem so confident in how the Legacy Code works and how the servers handle stress. Please explain?
#DeleteTheWeak
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#44 - 2016-07-21 00:47:22 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Making the loot instead of the act is certainly possible, it would involve an extra database field for every single item in the game to carry the illegally/legally looted flag, unfortunately the overhead on the database would be prohibitive and cause more problems than it solves.

TL;DR CCP could fix it, but it's not necessarily a good idea for them to do so.

Don't worry, there are much less ressource intensive ways to implement this.



Since you seem so confident in how the Legacy Code works and how the servers handle stress. Please explain?

I'm not sure what kind of legacy code in particular you're referring to in this case. Crimewatch was completely rewritten in 2012 and there are hardly any requirements for item management:

Using a (database backed) flag per item would be a total waste as the number of suspect items is tiny at any given time compared to all items combined. It's also temporary data that doesn't need to survive a server restart and thus doesn't need to go to persistent storage.

The key point is to store information about suspect items seperate from the actual items. There are many ways to do this and depends on the current implementation, e. g. as a list of { itemId, timestamp, originalOwnerId } in the parent item (container, hangar, etc). You only need to modify that data when something is added or removed from the parent item (timed out items can e.g. be removed through a periodic cleanup job; not really important how, as the timestamp determines if it's relevant or not). The only time when you need that data is when you change the location of an item. In 99.99999% of the cases this list will be empty, so it has no effect on performance where no suspect items are involved. If the list is not empty, lookups for Crimewatch are fast, computationally speaking, as the number of items is very limited and you only need to check the taken items' timestamps in that list and only until you reach the first one that causes an update to the new parent item's owner suspect flag timer.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2016-07-21 03:41:57 UTC
That's what you get for asking a programmer to explain.

+1; I had another solution in mind but yours would work, yup.
Nitshe Razvedka
#46 - 2016-07-21 03:47:32 UTC
and Pedro is a lawyer charging by the word.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2016-07-21 06:16:49 UTC
Or just make all those wrecks blueBig smile

(says the neutral pilot who has a Bustard...)

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#48 - 2016-07-22 08:32:19 UTC
I see several possible counters to this looting tactic:
1) Gank the rookie ship before it loots
2) Gank the bustard
3) Bump the bustard away from the wreck
4) Shoot the wreck before it gets looted
5) Loot the wreck before someone else loots it

and last but not least...

6) Don't get ganked! (and if it was someone else who got ganked, why are you trying to deny the ganker their spoils? You meanie!)

In any case, someone is going through the effort of using two accounts in order to loot, this should result in some additional benefits.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2016-07-22 09:48:20 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:

2) Gank the bustard


Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the TankabilityTwisted

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#50 - 2016-07-22 10:36:30 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:

2) Gank the bustard


Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the TankabilityTwisted

Care to share the fit you are using? Because I suspect you are exaggerating a bit...unless you are only looking at tank vs catalysts and assuming nobody could ever use any other ship for ganking...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#51 - 2016-07-22 11:36:32 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
I see several possible counters to this looting tactic:
1) Gank the rookie ship before it loots
2) Gank the bustard
3) Bump the bustard away from the wreck
4) Shoot the wreck before it gets looted
5) Loot the wreck before someone else loots it

and last but not least...

6) Don't get ganked! (and if it was someone else who got ganked, why are you trying to deny the ganker their spoils? You meanie!)

In any case, someone is going through the effort of using two accounts in order to loot, this should result in some additional benefits.

but it's soooooo hard /s
I mean there's litterally a trillion ways to avoid getting ganked...
So if you get ganked, you defo deserved it

@op
Whatever happens concerning this, AG will keep crying about how CODE. can still do *insert CODE. activity here* even after it got nerfed to shizzle.
The only way AG can adapt is thro.. oh wait.
AG can't adapt.
They prefer sperging tears all over the forums so that CCP makes the game easier for them (in tthe hopes that they can stop failing one day)

Cool

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CCL Loyalist
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#52 - 2016-07-22 17:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Flynt
Trevor Dalech wrote:
I see several possible counters to this looting tactic:
1) Gank the rookie ship before it loots
2) Gank the bustard
3) Bump the bustard away from the wreck
4) Shoot the wreck before it gets looted
5) Loot the wreck before someone else loots it

and last but not least...

6) Don't get ganked! (and if it was someone else who got ganked, why are you trying to deny the ganker their spoils? You meanie!)

In any case, someone is going through the effort of using two accounts in order to loot, this should result in some additional benefits.

By that logic suspect flags for looting could be entirely removed. I suggest you create a new thread in F&I because this thread isn't about it.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Paranoid Loyd
#53 - 2016-07-22 17:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Specia1 K wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:

2) Gank the bustard


Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the TankabilityTwisted

Care to share the fit you are using? Because I suspect you are exaggerating a bit...unless you are only looking at tank vs catalysts and assuming nobody could ever use any other ship for ganking...

[Bustard, 285K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

OH Stats:
285K EHP (369K vs Anitmatter 382K vs Void 211K vs Fusion)
90+ Resists across the board for shields
689.6 Passive recharge

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#54 - 2016-07-22 17:31:24 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Specia1 K wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:

2) Gank the bustard


Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the TankabilityTwisted

Care to share the fit you are using? Because I suspect you are exaggerating a bit...unless you are only looking at tank vs catalysts and assuming nobody could ever use any other ship for ganking...

[Bustard, 285K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

OH Stats:
285K EHP (369K vs Anitmatter 382K vs Void)
90+ Resists across the board for shields
689.6 Passive recharge

Even scarier when you put in some (pretty cheap) republic fleet large shield extenders and a fleet booster....

I stand corrected o7

edit: oh and the passive shield implants would add another not-insignificant bit...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Paranoid Loyd
#55 - 2016-07-22 17:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
You'll rarely see one like that in this situation though, at the very least it should have a MWD on it to get into warp faster and give you some sort of chance to get to the gate if you get bumped. So realistically you're looking at 170K EHP.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-07-22 21:11:49 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
You'll rarely see one like that in this situation though, at the very least it should have a MWD on it to get into warp faster and give you some sort of chance to get back to the gate if you get bumped. So realistically you're looking at 170K EHP.


True.
MMJD works on this class too.

Mastodon has a little less tank but better fitting options imho.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-07-23 15:47:02 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:

2) Gank the bustard


Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the TankabilityTwisted


Yes, and lets not forget that Concord is already on the grid since the the gank just happened right there. This is why gankers move concord from gates after a gank.
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-07-23 16:10:22 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Trevor Dalech wrote:
I see several possible counters to this looting tactic:
1) Gank the rookie ship before it loots
2) Gank the bustard
3) Bump the bustard away from the wreck
4) Shoot the wreck before it gets looted
5) Loot the wreck before someone else loots it

and last but not least...

6) Don't get ganked! (and if it was someone else who got ganked, why are you trying to deny the ganker their spoils? You meanie!)

In any case, someone is going through the effort of using two accounts in order to loot, this should result in some additional benefits.

but it's soooooo hard /s
I mean there's litterally a trillion ways to avoid getting ganked...
So if you get ganked, you defo deserved it

@op
Whatever happens concerning this, AG will keep crying about how CODE. can still do *insert CODE. activity here* even after it got nerfed to shizzle.
The only way AG can adapt is thro.. oh wait.
AG can't adapt.
They prefer sperging tears all over the forums so that CCP makes the game easier for them (in tthe hopes that they can stop failing one day)

Cool


You missed the point of the post friend. Its about not hiding behind a mechanic meant for something else. Not about ganking, not about removing looting from the game, its about fixing bugs/loopholes that have fallen though the cracks of game development. If you want to loot, you can loot, and then go suspect as the game was intended.


Posted: 100% Salt free guarantee.

NotTheSmartestCookie
Shooting Blues Everyday
Gimme Da Loot
#59 - 2016-07-23 16:54:56 UTC
This gameplay is a good example of emergent gameplay. The current mechanism fits the risk/reward for ganking and provides an opportunity for interesting gameplay as there is nothing to stop other parties from going for the loot too. If you want the loot and/or the killmails you will have to man up and put on your big-boy-britches.

Sadly enough the AntiGankers see player interaction as one of the least desirable aspects of EVE so their "solutions" always involve introducing more game mechanics and never involve undocking and pewing at other ships (unless it is whoring on concord kills).

Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time.

Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3.

Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Kip Winger
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2016-07-23 17:35:37 UTC
NotTheSmartestCookie wrote:
This gameplay is a good example of emergent gameplay. The current mechanism fits the risk/reward for ganking and provides an opportunity for interesting gameplay as there is nothing to stop other parties from going for the loot too. If you want the loot and/or the killmails you will have to man up and put on your big-boy-britches.

Sadly enough the AntiGankers see player interaction as one of the least desirable aspects of EVE so their "solutions" always involve introducing more game mechanics and never involve undocking and pewing at other ships (unless it is whoring on concord kills).


Please explain your comment. You said it "fits the risk/reward". Where is the the risk? a Noob ship that gets alphed? So that a Phat Bustard can quickly swoop in and fly away with Millions.. Billions of loot avoiding the suspect tag? Bustard getting ganked....? Risk? Not FY, concord on grid to prevent a gank... safely docks. So please.... tell me more about that.

I ask for a level playing field, and seems like gankers just want to keep a loophole that as allowed them to score billions... trillions of ISK in loot over the years, so I understand you want nothing to change, but it does not mean it it won't.