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Tech 2 Mining Barge Cost

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Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-07-21 08:01:02 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Alright, I'm taking one for the team lest this thread get out of hand.



Now, the fact that the sell prices of T2 barges aren't far off from their production cost simply means that this particular market is overcrowded. More barges are being produed and sold than there are barges getting blown up, supply is higher than demand. For the manufacturer it leads to the necessity to switch to a different item to produce or to move to a different location to sell what he's got.

Or the supply is higher than the demand because nobody wants to pay the bare minimum price for one. That one is tougher to put in numbers but not impossible.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#22 - 2016-07-21 08:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Alright, I'm taking one for the team lest this thread get out of hand.



Now, the fact that the sell prices of T2 barges aren't far off from their production cost simply means that this particular market is overcrowded. More barges are being produed and sold than there are barges getting blown up, supply is higher than demand. For the manufacturer it leads to the necessity to switch to a different item to produce or to move to a different location to sell what he's got.

Or the supply is higher than the demand because nobody wants to pay the bare minimum price for one. That one is tougher to put in numbers but not impossible.


Nobody makes miners buy T2 barges at gunpoint. That's their rational choice. Why are you so convinced that everyone has to use T2 stuff? "Bigger" is not always "better".

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#23 - 2016-07-21 08:07:38 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
The price just doesn't validate the gains over t1 barges.


For you, this would appear to be the case. I would suggest that your Procurer fit needs a little work. Rigs would be a nice start.

For a great many players that do inappropriate things to poor harmless asteroids, the yield and survivability gains of using the T2 exhumers are well worth the costs. A Skiff fleet assisting drones to a combat fit tackle boat can dish out some surprising DPS.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-07-21 08:09:30 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Alright, I'm taking one for the team lest this thread get out of hand.



Now, the fact that the sell prices of T2 barges aren't far off from their production cost simply means that this particular market is overcrowded. More barges are being produed and sold than there are barges getting blown up, supply is higher than demand. For the manufacturer it leads to the necessity to switch to a different item to produce or to move to a different location to sell what he's got.

Or the supply is higher than the demand because nobody wants to pay the bare minimum price for one. That one is tougher to put in numbers but not impossible.


Nobody makes miners buy T2 barges at gunpoint. That's their rational choice. Why are you so convinced that everyone has to use T2 stuff? "Bigger" is not always "better".

Why is the gunpoint comment relevant... I never said everyone has to use T2 stuff, but it should be worthwhile. "bigger isn't better?" This is eve dude. Whoever has more of the bigger sticks wins.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#25 - 2016-07-21 08:10:21 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Alright, I'm taking one for the team lest this thread get out of hand.



Now, the fact that the sell prices of T2 barges aren't far off from their production cost simply means that this particular market is overcrowded. More barges are being produed and sold than there are barges getting blown up, supply is higher than demand. For the manufacturer it leads to the necessity to switch to a different item to produce or to move to a different location to sell what he's got.

Or the supply is higher than the demand because nobody wants to pay the bare minimum price for one. That one is tougher to put in numbers but not impossible.


I always assumed that members of the Goons had the T2 BPO's for the Hulk and Mackinaw but not the Skiff Twisted

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-07-21 08:16:21 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Whoever has more of the bigger sticks wins.


See, now I know you don't get EVE. I could provide you a very long list of examples of what makes this such a wrong thing to say let alone believe, but I'll keep it short and sweet:

EVE is a strategic and tactical game as much as it is a simulation, and when it comes to strategy and tactics, brains will outmatch brawn every time. It's no good having a big stick if your enemy is too fast to swing it at.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Black Pedro
Mine.
#27 - 2016-07-21 08:20:13 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
So yeah, I agree with the OP, the amount of Minerals required to build the Materials is too much. Also the amount of Materials required to build the hull is too much.

Seriously, I know this game is a time sink but this is just ridiculous.
New Eden has a complex, interdependent player-driven economy. In order to give meaning to the actives of miners and other PvE-ers, it is necessary to have a large demand for resources to build, as well as a constant destruction of assets.

You are not intended to mine all the ore yourself to build a freighter in an evening or even a month. If everyone could do that there would be no market as everyone would be self-sufficient and assets would have no value. You are intended to by ore/minerals from dozens or even hundreds of miners giving their in-game activities a real purpose and value. It's why people pay almost 2-PLEX or $40 worth of real currency to be able to have a freighter.

As to the OP, the fact that most ships are sold at or near build cost is completely determined by the players. Now, one can argue that industry is currently too fast, safe, and easy given that industrialists are willing to accept such low profit margins, and that CCP should make industry, especially highsec industry, more difficult, but ultimately the prices and values of built goods are determined by the players.

Now as to the mineral requirements for T2 vs T1 ships, that is completely intentional as explained above. Just as you have decide whether that long train for a level 5 skill is worth it over the much shorter train to level 4, whether to field the more costly T2 ship instead of lower-performing T1 ship is a choice you, the player, have to make. Sounds like the T1 ship is better suited for your needs, or at least what you think your needs are, so it is perhaps best to stick with them given you seem to value the reduced cost over the marginal increase in performance.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#28 - 2016-07-21 08:24:33 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Why is the gunpoint comment relevant... I never said everyone has to use T2 stuff, but it should be worthwhile.


Worthwhile to whom? To you? Because I can see plenty of Skiffs all around highsec, and a fair number of Mackinaws, and I haven't heard the pilots complaining about exhumer costs too much.

Hulks... yeah, there aren't many of them out mining, but that's because they're usually the first ones to get ganked. If it wasn't the case, everyone would be flying those, just like they used to 4-5 years ago.

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
"bigger isn't better?" This is eve dude. Whoever has more of the bigger sticks wins.


Roll

It's the people who stick to this mentality who complain on the forums that their multi-billion freighter has been ganked by a 300-million Catalyst fleet.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec
Nitshe Razvedka
#29 - 2016-07-21 08:27:07 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle


A few beans and some observations made in a back-water economy does not make a universal principal. The USA economy makes your %'s look base.

Typical Code methodology cherry picking for answers.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-07-21 08:28:51 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
So yeah, I agree with the OP, the amount of Minerals required to build the Materials is too much. Also the amount of Materials required to build the hull is too much.

Seriously, I know this game is a time sink but this is just ridiculous.
New Eden has a complex, interdependent player-driven economy. In order to give meaning to the actives of miners and other PvE-ers, it is necessary to have a large demand for resources to build, as well as a constant destruction of assets.

You are not intended to mine all the ore yourself to build a freighter in an evening or even a month. If everyone could do that there would be no market as everyone would be self-sufficient and assets would have no value. You are intended to by ore/minerals from dozens or even hundreds of miners giving their in-game activities a real purpose and value. It's why people pay almost 2-PLEX or $40 worth of real currency to be able to have a freighter.

As to the OP, the fact that most ships are sold at or near build cost is completely determined by the players. Now, one can argue that industry is currently too fast, safe, and easy given that industrialists are willing to accept such low profit margins, and that CCP should make industry, especially highsec industry, more difficult, but ultimately the prices and values of built goods are determined by the players.

Now as to the mineral requirements for T2 vs T1 ships, that is completely intentional as explained above. Just as you have decide whether that long train for a level 5 skill is worth it over the much shorter train to level 4, whether to field the more costly T2 ship instead of lower-performing T1 ship is a choice you, the player, have to make. Sounds like the T1 ship is better suited for your needs, or at least what you think your needs are, so it is perhaps best to stick with them given you seem to value the reduced cost over the marginal increase in performance.

Why on earth would a ship that one person flys require a community. idk how long it took him to gather all of those assets. If its player driven then why are the requirements set in stone? If most ships are sold at near manufacturing price doesn't that mean the price is too high because it is bumping up against what people are willing to pay via supply demand and other factors?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2016-07-21 08:37:44 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
So yeah, I agree with the OP, the amount of Minerals required to build the Materials is too much. Also the amount of Materials required to build the hull is too much.

Seriously, I know this game is a time sink but this is just ridiculous.
New Eden has a complex, interdependent player-driven economy. In order to give meaning to the actives of miners and other PvE-ers, it is necessary to have a large demand for resources to build, as well as a constant destruction of assets.

You are not intended to mine all the ore yourself to build a freighter in an evening or even a month. If everyone could do that there would be no market as everyone would be self-sufficient and assets would have no value. You are intended to by ore/minerals from dozens or even hundreds of miners giving their in-game activities a real purpose and value. It's why people pay almost 2-PLEX or $40 worth of real currency to be able to have a freighter.

As to the OP, the fact that most ships are sold at or near build cost is completely determined by the players. Now, one can argue that industry is currently too fast, safe, and easy given that industrialists are willing to accept such low profit margins, and that CCP should make industry, especially highsec industry, more difficult, but ultimately the prices and values of built goods are determined by the players.

Now as to the mineral requirements for T2 vs T1 ships, that is completely intentional as explained above. Just as you have decide whether that long train for a level 5 skill is worth it over the much shorter train to level 4, whether to field the more costly T2 ship instead of lower-performing T1 ship is a choice you, the player, have to make. Sounds like the T1 ship is better suited for your needs, or at least what you think your needs are, so it is perhaps best to stick with them given you seem to value the reduced cost over the marginal increase in performance.

Why on earth would a ship that one person flys require a community. idk how long it took him to gather all of those assets. If its player driven then why are the requirements set in stone? If most ships are sold at near manufacturing price doesn't that mean the price is too high because it is bumping up against what people are willing to pay via supply demand and other factors?


More like you need a community to extract the resources to build the ship, produce the tech II blueprints needed to build the ship, actually build the ship and ship the ship to the market to be sold to you.

Material requirements are set in stone because OF COURSE IT IS. If it takes x kg of gold and silicon to produce a circult board, you don't get to democratically vote to reduce it. Instead, you need people to refine the process of manufacturing to reduce the materials needed. Translated to Eve universe, that means another community of dudes who do research to produce blueprint copies with reduced material requirements. And those guys? They used time and fuel and blueprint originals costs and want to be reimbursed! So you have to pay those guys for their blueprint copies too for their asking price. Think it's not worth it? Find someone else who is selling at fairer price.

Taxes, manufacturing fees and etc are also set in stone. Material cost, on the other hand, ISN'T. One unit of tritanium at this point happens to be X isk not because of some arbitrary number decided by the game system and more because the sellers are selling that trit for that amount of isk and someone agreed to buy that unit of isk for the asking price.

What part of manufacturing do you not understand?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#32 - 2016-07-21 08:52:22 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Why on earth would a ship that one person flys require a community. idk how long it took him to gather all of those assets. If its player driven then why are the requirements set in stone? If most ships are sold at near manufacturing price doesn't that mean the price is too high because it is bumping up against what people are willing to pay via supply demand and other factors?
Because this is a social, persistent MMO? It is not some lobby spaceship combat game where you linearly proceed up through the ranks of ships.

Honestly, the materials for most ships, even the exhumers you are whining about, can be mined a single player with only small or moderate amount of effort. But not all ships or infrastructure, and as you get up to the levels of capitals and Citadels, you require the output of large organizations to meet the built requirements. This is all intended and gives us challenges to work towards together and value to these expensive ships.

And no, the fact that ships are sold near built cost just means that industry is too easy or that market is too crowded. Given that almost anyone with the moderate amount of skills can spend 2 minutes clicking and turn minerals into a ship a few hours or days later in an invulnerable station or highsec POS means there is no challenge or effort in building things and transporting it to a trade hub also has almost no risk. That's all. All things that can be made by players so easily will trend towards build costs, especially if it is so easy and safe that a single player can do it with no risk.

Both the lowest demand, and the most desirable ships in this game still aren't too far above build costs in the trade hubs. Supply and demand only will influence price if there is some scarcity in the market either because things are difficult/risky/restricted to build, or hard to transport. In highsec today we have neither of these things so most build-able items cost what the minerals cost, plus a tiny fee to compensate the industrialist for a few minutes of their time to make it and the market taxes.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-07-21 11:10:00 UTC
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle


A few beans and some observations made in a back-water economy does not make a universal principal. The USA economy makes your %'s look base.

Typical Code methodology cherry picking for answers.



Try reading more than the first four lines.
The Pareto principle is an illustration of a "power law" relationship, which also occurs in phenomena such as brush fires and earthquakes. Because it is self-similar over a wide range of magnitudes, it produces outcomes completely different from Gaussian distribution phenomena. This fact explains the frequent breakdowns of sophisticated financial instruments, which are modeled on the assumption that a Gaussian relationship is appropriate to, for example, stock price movements.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Erebus Vain
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-07-21 11:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Erebus Vain
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
"bigger isn't better?" This is eve dude. Whoever has more of the bigger sticks wins.


Are we mining with sticks now?
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#35 - 2016-07-21 11:39:18 UTC
T2 mining ship costs are exactly on par with all other T2 ships in the game. Yet I don't see anybody complaining that T2 combat ships cost way too much to build and should be much much cheaper.

Why is it always the *miners* who demand to be the special snowflakes?



Also @DMC - In my exploration of EVE I actually tried mining, and more relevantly large-scale manufacturing - and I'd have to say that the issue with your profit margins is much more a product of people undervaluing their time/effort investment into their work/materials than it is a factor of build cost. The manufacturing market has pitifully small margins all the way from the small/cheap end of the spectrum to the big/expensive items - and I don't really think lowering build prices would do anything but open the more expensive items up to even more small-scale idiots who would rush to drop the sale prices and tank your profit margin even more.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Memphis Baas
#36 - 2016-07-21 11:54:39 UTC
So what exactly do you propose, OP?

Because, CCP decides building costs (in terms of what mats the blueprint requires). But players decide the cost of minerals, and the price of the ship.

You're asking that the price of the ship be adjusted. Given who controls it, good luck convincing the rest of the playerbase.

Otherwise, if you're asking CCP to modify the blueprint to require fewer materials, guess what? The price of the ship will follow the new, lower costs, and the ship will still not be profitable to manufacture.

You're proposing that the entire player base changes its market trading behavior. It's laughable.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-07-21 12:08:05 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
So what exactly do you propose, OP?

Because, CCP decides building costs (in terms of what mats the blueprint requires). But players decide the cost of minerals, and the price of the ship.

You're asking that the price of the ship be adjusted. Given who controls it, good luck convincing the rest of the playerbase.

Otherwise, if you're asking CCP to modify the blueprint to require fewer materials, guess what? The price of the ship will follow the new, lower costs, and the ship will still not be profitable to manufacture.

You're proposing that the entire player base changes its market trading behavior. It's laughable.

Actually you got my message about the manufacturing, however I have no interest in making them. It about them being worth the cost(lowering the material cost).

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
T2 mining ship costs are exactly on par with all other T2 ships in the game. Yet I don't see anybody complaining that T2 combat ships cost way too much to build and should be much much cheaper
comparing ships that are almost exclusively used for pvp and the thing that makes those pvp ships possible is stupid. The pvpers that use T2 don't care about the cost like miners because miners have to look at money made vs money lost. Pvpers don't. Do you have ANY idea how many hours it takes to break even on a 250 million isk mining ship?
Memphis Baas
#38 - 2016-07-21 12:13:44 UTC
So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it?
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#39 - 2016-07-21 12:19:13 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
T2 mining ship costs are exactly on par with all other T2 ships in the game. Yet I don't see anybody complaining that T2 combat ships cost way too much to build and should be much much cheaper
comparing ships that are almost exclusively used for pvp and the thing that makes those pvp ships possible is stupid. The pvpers that use T2 don't care about the cost like miners because miners have to look at money made vs money lost. Pvpers don't. Do you have ANY idea how many hours it takes to break even on a 250 million isk mining ship?

No, it isn't stupid. They are in the same game, and they have similar reward increases for similar cost increases. This is what we in the video game world call "balanced". *You* are demanding that the balance be upset and that you be given special privileges just because you choose to be a miner.

Yes I do have a good idea how many hours it takes to break even on a 250 million isk mining ship. I also have a good idea how many *tens of thousands* of miners manage to do it, because they believe the reward is worth the investment.

Believe it or not, *some* miners even invest ~750 million isk into an orca or *2 billion* isk into a rorqual to further increase their mining yield - not to mention a billion isk a month per account for PLEX...

Just because you suck at your chosen profession doesn't mean CCP needs to bail you out. Deal with it.



And contrary to popular belief - PvPers have to get their money from somewhere too - we don't just buy PLEX to do it (or at least most of us don't) - so once again, why should you be special and get things handed to you for cheap while we have to pay full price?

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-07-21 12:21:03 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
So exactly how many hours does it take to break even on a 250 million ISK PVP ship, from PVP'ing with it?

You don't PvP to make money is my point...