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Crime & Punishment

 
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Strange, yet satisfying revenge story.
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Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#21 - 2016-07-20 15:16:32 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
It is a *massive* difference of degree. Before the $$$ cost was insane and the results were mediocre at best for most players.


So your complaint that the game is rewarding those with deep RL pockets is based around the idea that you used to need deeper RL pockets to buy SP. What?

Quote:
Now anybody can do it - and based on the number of sp bought/sold most people *are* starting to do so.


Based on the number bought and sold and a healthy dose of sheer guesswork, you mean - is it a few whales or a ubiquitous practice? I don't know and _neither do you_. I know I've never done it and I'd lay a reasonable bet you haven't. Beyond that - who can tell?

Quote:
But hey, at least I finally got you to admit there *is* a difference of some sort.


My first post in this thread said "2016 brought a difference of degree not kind" so, well done on "finally" getting me to "admit" something I said right from the get-go.

Quote:
Clearly you have never heard of the "search" feature...


If you'd tried that you'd find it's a surprisingly slow way to find out if a character is bought. It certainly is not the case that, as you said, "everyone" knows the character is bought; a few especially curious people might.

Quote:
My personal theory as to why there are no riots currently is simple: Those players quit. The active EVE player base is less than 50% of what it was then. And a lot of the remaining population are new characters. None of you arguing with me was even playing anywhere *near* 2011. You never played the game as it was then, and you never will.


It's true. On the other hand my two regular fleetmates started in '06 and '10, so I'm not totally uninformed on the subject.

My personal theory as to why there are no riots now is simpler still; most players recognise that you've been able to buy and sell SP for years, and more generally that since the invention of the PLEX (well before 2011), deep RL pockets have been legitimately able to buy a substantial advantage in the game. Unlike yours it does have the merit of having some actual facts behind it.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#22 - 2016-07-20 15:24:38 UTC
And yet, you *still* avoid my question then: Why, according to *you* were there riots in 2011 then?

You keep just ignoring this. If nobody ever cared about EVE moving towards Pay-To-Win - why did they riot about it in 2011?

Ignoring the entire question is also poor debating technique. Answer it or shut up.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#23 - 2016-07-20 15:53:28 UTC
This story right here tells me I should not renew my subscription.

Not that it matters. It is a very satisfying revenge story-for whoever has taken over CCP. How many plex did that fleet cost?
This feature rewards bad players with big wallets. It rewards good players with big wallets even more: if one of us went and did what Lea Kaos/Quomnius Mosseranius/Kaldax did, we'd beat him solidly.
I'm mostly a mission bear, but I know enough about mechanics to probably beat him with three T3C, or even the right mix of T1 ships. The Tengu wasn't using autotarget missiles, so jam that out (blackbird). Neut and burn the Legion (prophecyx2 should do it, or prophecy and brutix), and ignore the Moa for the moment.
I just know better than to drop that much money on plex, and so do most of the rest of us. But in that corporate culture, they're not going to care about a few minnows dropping a pathetic $15/month subscription when they can get a couple of whales to spend $500+ to do what that multiboxer did.

Probably the reason this P2W game didn't feel quite like a P2W game was: it took a lot longer for it to become apparent, with careful planning heavily rewarded. And a lot of confusing mechanics. Now it's a lot faster.

A signature :o
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#24 - 2016-07-21 18:55:35 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
And yet, you *still* avoid my question then: Why, according to *you* were there riots in 2011 then?


It's not pertinent.

"Why is no-one rioting over X in 2016?"
"Well, X isn't a new development. It's been possible for years. It just got somewhat more convenient in 2016."
"Ah, but people rioted over a new development in 2011! Explain that!"

That's not an argument; it's a non sequitur.

You're trying to imply that the 2011 riots were caused by something very like skill injectors, so the lack of riots now means the playerbase has changed; this is bobbins because the situations themselves are not similar - in 2011 there was a _new_ unwelcome development with the promise of more new unwelcome developments to come. You're trying to gloss over that by waving the bogeyman of "pay to win", but this isn't very convincing; it's been possible to pay cash for some advantage in EVE ever since CCP made it clear you were not just permitted but encouraged to dual-box.

Incidentally, you seem to have missed out quite a lot of your post, like the bit where you say "You're right, actually, I didn't force to you admit that, you said it right away."
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#25 - 2016-07-21 19:08:54 UTC
Yeah.... Riots over the mere threat of Pay-2-Win items in 2011 clearly bear no relation or even similarity to the actual release of Pay-2-Win items in 2016.... How could anyone ever think they were similar...

PLEX is a special case for a few reasons:
#1 - The monetary advantage was offset by the hard SP limits that were in place at the time.
#2 - The actual game advantage of the PLEX *item* went to the people in-game who *did not* spend RL $$$ on it. So the opposite of normal p2w.


Not that I expect you to understand either of those points, however painfully simple/obvious they may be to normal humans - because you are clearly either just trolling at this point or you are just a clueless idiot.

In either case, I'm tired of talking to you, so I'm going to stop following this thread. Have fun trolling yourself here as I'm sure you will P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
om rootingking
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#26 - 2016-07-21 22:59:47 UTC
Everybody calm down, oh my GHAD you're going to give yourselves skin failure.
Maybe it's a boiling frog sort of thing, the Greed is Good article seemed like an elaborate troll and the reaction to it was just that: a reaction not a response.
Shooting a monument in this game is like shining a torch at a tree, no money was harmed.
Now we have the implementation of a streamlined version of the old (drop money be uber) that the character bazaar offered. It's now available to people who don't get the game and haven't taken the time to even try.
Incidentally the Tengu pilot turned up in Help channel asking if there were clone soldiers in null. I replied in the negative and said the rats in null were worth the effort but not to lose a faction n deadspace T3 over it, or a billion isk pod.
Tengu Maestro didn't cop to who i was (not good) and was all question marks as bubble camps and ratter hunters were raised by others.
So definitely a few more crazy shiny losses to be wrung out of this pilot but the mystery remains, if you can drop hundreds on getting set up in the game, how fun is blapping rats worth about three cents going to be? For how long?
Lt Mando
Inherently risky schemes.
#27 - 2016-07-21 23:33:03 UTC
Why does anyone care who buys skill points tho ? It really doesn't matter at all .
om rootingking
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#28 - 2016-07-22 00:55:37 UTC
It wouldn't matter at all if it didn't change anything.
The major changes are: pilot age is no longer knowledge useful in estimating how skilled they are, a very important change in a pvp game; new players can simply and easily start their experience able to lose huge and shiny, this makes huge and shiny beyond worthless; learning mechanics by making small, cheap mistakes can mean competence when the ability to control great assets or forces finally comes around. The chance to short circuit straight to what an outsider would call end-game content makes even large, immediately replaceable losses meaningless.
Yeah people could always do that, but now it's linear and simplified for a buck, it changes things and that does matter.
Not gonna shoot a monument over it, but who wants to play chess with someone who has a bucket of queens? Would anyone play chess if a bucket of queens was the new requisite to start?
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