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HHC On Tibus Heth / Diana Kim Admits Heth's Failures!
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Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2016-07-20 06:54:17 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
Unfortunately, Pieter, as you probably well know by now, any actions that don't involve the complete and utter genocide and destruction of the Gallente people and their culture will never seem to fit in with Kim's views of heroism. Her worship of a false hero who sought to uproot the State's culture and society in favor of his own, and who also oversaw the murder and terrorizing of countless State citizens speaks volumes.

Gariushi's legacy will live on, however. Reppola does a fine job of carrying the torch of the honorable Gariushi. And RDC alongside I-RED continue to promote Gariushi's life work of building a lasting relationship of peace and prosperity between the Gallente and Caldari.


Speaking of which I haven't heard of Gariushi ever since the Feds handed over chunks of Caldari Prime into Ishukone hands. What's happening over there?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Kumi Katikama
Doomheim
#42 - 2016-07-20 07:43:16 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Maybe he did also some questioning actions and some of his decisions were suboptimal, and I myself highly disagree with what he did in couple of situations...


Fellow citizens, I think that this statement here is the best advertisement of HHC that I could ever make. On our first thread, we have convinced Kim-haani that Heth-guri was not a perfect man!

Might I suggest a new hero for Kim-Haani: Admiral Yanala.
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#43 - 2016-07-20 08:15:56 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Speaking of which I haven't heard of Gariushi ever since the Feds handed over chunks of Caldari Prime into Ishukone hands. What's happening over there?

Sometimes actions speak louder than words.

I personally see no need to mention his name with every action that promotes the ideals he believed in. He was never a man to constantly point the limelight onto himself. Needless to say, however, Gariushi would be most proud of Ishukone for being the first megacorporation to take the necessary steps to ease the situation over Caldari Prime.

In terms of developments related to I-RED, you may wish to peruse the topics on the IGS to find out how we've been continuing to carry on Gariushi's legacy.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!
Loki Vaako
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2016-07-20 11:18:07 UTC
I think it's easy to condemn people when they die. Rightly or Wrongly Tibus Heth unified the entire Caldari State to a single purpose - War against the Gallente.

If he had plans to deal with the situation afterward is a moot point since it didn't happen.

What he should be remembered for is that one man unified all of the Caldari People for that purpose.

He didn't fight for personal glory or honor but for the people, from the most powerful CEO to the waiters in the cafe's. He should be remembered for that.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2016-07-20 11:36:37 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Ms. Neph, I didn't ask about his personal qualities, if he was good or bad, about his principles and policies, business successes and how he acted as a leader.

I have asked if he has committed an actual heroic action, and if he did - which one.


He almost brought a negotiated peace between the State and the Federation, being slain with his kirjuun at their HQ in Malkalen at the hands of Admiral Noir and the so-called "Wandering Saint".

He literally gave his life in an attempt to bring peace to The State. That's heroic enough, isn't it?

Negative. That was his professional duty, and there was no visible risk to him or his corporation when he was doing it. He and everyone else on the station were just victims of Federation Admiral's terror attack. There is nothing heroic in such a death... he died as a victim of a murderer.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#46 - 2016-07-20 11:46:58 UTC
Loki Vaako wrote:
I think it's easy to condemn people when they die. Rightly or Wrongly Tibus Heth unified the entire Caldari State to a single purpose - War against the Gallente.

If he had plans to deal with the situation afterward is a moot point since it didn't happen.

What he should be remembered for is that one man unified all of the Caldari People for that purpose.

He didn't fight for personal glory or honor but for the people, from the most powerful CEO to the waiters in the cafe's. He should be remembered for that.

Thank you, Sir.

However, I would like to add a small correction. Tibus Heth has unified the entire Caldari State not just for War against Gallente, but to liberate our Home planet - Caldari Prime. After the planet was liberated, he has actually contacted Federals and signed the treaty with Gallente President, it was Souro Foiritan back then.

The war what we are fighting today is a gallente initiative, that revolves around Black Rise - a region we have colonized in secrecy, and gallenteans wanted to lay their claims on it... with their weapons.

As for the treaty that Foiritan has signed with Heth, it was violated of course... by gallenteans, of course. In YC115 with their 'Operation Highlander', when they smuggled clone soldiers to Caldari Prime and attempted to occupy our home world once again. Thanks to our own valiant ground troops the invasion was halted, but for now about half of our planet is still in enemy's hands.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#47 - 2016-07-20 12:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Korsavius
Loki Vaako wrote:
He didn't fight for personal glory or honor but for the people, from the most powerful CEO to the waiters in the cafe's. He should be remembered for that.

I hope this statement is a joke.

It seems it is also easy to speak nonsense when you fail to engage a willingness to properly review historical sources. Allow me to enlighten you.

You say he didn't fight for personal glory or honor yet he usurped the traditional values of Caldari society and culture to position himself as the "executor" of the State - a position which has never before in the history of the State existed. To add on to this, he also attempted to dispose of the CEOs of the megacorporations in favor of coercing every megacorporation under his direct control. Potential access to billions of ISK and assets and people, all at his greedy fingertips.

You say he sought to fight for CEOs? That is funny because his actions directly encouraged the removal of the CEO of the largest megacorporation in the State. He casually took the helm instead. What happened under his rule of KK was that he almost single-handedly bankrupted the megacorporation.

You say he sought to fight for the people? Again, this is just a purely ignorant statement. Under his command, millions of Caldari were directly in the crosshairs of warships under orders from a corrupt regime. Any and all opposition to Heth or the CPD was silenced. Thousands of Caldari died because of Heth's lust for power and obedience. The latter part of his rule were some of the darkest times in Caldari history - and yet you mock the lives of those lost under his regime by spouting such ill-informed jibberish? This is shameful.

Please educate yourself before making such posts on the IGS in the future.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!
Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2016-07-20 12:44:46 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Loki Vaako wrote:
I think it's easy to condemn people when they die. Rightly or Wrongly Tibus Heth unified the entire Caldari State to a single purpose - War against the Gallente.

If he had plans to deal with the situation afterward is a moot point since it didn't happen.

What he should be remembered for is that one man unified all of the Caldari People for that purpose.

He didn't fight for personal glory or honor but for the people, from the most powerful CEO to the waiters in the cafe's. He should be remembered for that.

Thank you, Sir.

However, I would like to add a small correction. Tibus Heth has unified the entire Caldari State not just for War against Gallente, but to liberate our Home planet - Caldari Prime. After the planet was liberated, he has actually contacted Federals and signed the treaty with Gallente President, it was Souro Foiritan back then.

The war what we are fighting today is a gallente initiative, that revolves around Black Rise - a region we have colonized in secrecy, and gallenteans wanted to lay their claims on it... with their weapons.

As for the treaty that Foiritan has signed with Heth, it was violated of course... by gallenteans, of course. In YC115 with their 'Operation Highlander', when they smuggled clone soldiers to Caldari Prime and attempted to occupy our home world once again. Thanks to our own valiant ground troops the invasion was halted, but for now about half of our planet is still in enemy's hands.

I am sure that while Heth unified the Caldari it should not have been for an eternal pendulum war but for peace and it was a rouge admiral who killed Gariushi not the Gallente
Sanguina Dieudonne
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2016-07-20 13:11:12 UTC
Heth was total loser and hopefully he's some mindless True Slave in Stain. I should see if I can go visit to spit in his face. As for Operation Highlander the Federation's mistake was trying to take Caldari Prime. A couple of doomsdays from orbit would have fixed it right up.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#50 - 2016-07-20 13:47:55 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Loki Vaako wrote:
I think it's easy to condemn people when they die. Rightly or Wrongly Tibus Heth unified the entire Caldari State to a single purpose - War against the Gallente.

If he had plans to deal with the situation afterward is a moot point since it didn't happen.

What he should be remembered for is that one man unified all of the Caldari People for that purpose.

He didn't fight for personal glory or honor but for the people, from the most powerful CEO to the waiters in the cafe's. He should be remembered for that.

Thank you, Sir.

However, I would like to add a small correction. Tibus Heth has unified the entire Caldari State not just for War against Gallente, but to liberate our Home planet - Caldari Prime. After the planet was liberated, he has actually contacted Federals and signed the treaty with Gallente President, it was Souro Foiritan back then.

The war what we are fighting today is a gallente initiative, that revolves around Black Rise - a region we have colonized in secrecy, and gallenteans wanted to lay their claims on it... with their weapons.

As for the treaty that Foiritan has signed with Heth, it was violated of course... by gallenteans, of course. In YC115 with their 'Operation Highlander', when they smuggled clone soldiers to Caldari Prime and attempted to occupy our home world once again. Thanks to our own valiant ground troops the invasion was halted, but for now about half of our planet is still in enemy's hands.

I would like to point out that Caldari Prime was never liberated. Only occupied. As the fact that the Federation is now handing it over to Ishukone. As for the Gallente breaking a treaty, let's not get into how many treatys the state broke sending a fleet into Gallente space to begin with... Quid pro quo.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2016-07-20 16:28:54 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

I would like to point out that Caldari Prime was never liberated. Only occupied. As the fact that the Federation is now handing it over to Ishukone. As for the Gallente breaking a treaty, let's not get into how many treatys the state broke sending a fleet into Gallente space to begin with... Quid pro quo.


No. Caldari Prime was originally invaded by the Federation. The means that The State's occupation of the world could accurately be called a Liberation, since it returned the world to the control of its original owners. Whilst I'm not clamouring for a return to force as the deciding mechanism, I also think we shouldn't lose sight of who the original invaders were, Ms Osyn.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#52 - 2016-07-20 18:59:37 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

I would like to point out that Caldari Prime was never liberated. Only occupied. As the fact that the Federation is now handing it over to Ishukone. As for the Gallente breaking a treaty, let's not get into how many treatys the state broke sending a fleet into Gallente space to begin with... Quid pro quo.


No. Caldari Prime was originally invaded by the Federation. The means that The State's occupation of the world could accurately be called a Liberation, since it returned the world to the control of its original owners. Whilst I'm not clamouring for a return to force as the deciding mechanism, I also think we shouldn't lose sight of who the original invaders were, Ms Osyn.

An invasion of the invaders then? Not that that matters to the point I was making. When Heth sent that fleet across our borders he violated treatys made between the four empires and CONCORD. The point I was trying to get across to Kimmy is: If your not going to honor your agreements, don't expect us to honor ours.

And I don't know if you can actually claim to have liberated the planet when control of it ultimately fell back to the Gallente. It's kinda like taking a prisoner away from a law enforcement officer, getting tazed by said law enforcement officer and then he takes the prisoner back. At no point was said prisoner freed in any way.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2016-07-20 20:04:53 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

An invasion of the invaders then? Not that that matters to the point I was making. When Heth sent that fleet across our borders he violated treatys made between the four empires and CONCORD. The point I was trying to get across to Kimmy is: If your not going to honor your agreements, don't expect us to honor ours.

And I don't know if you can actually claim to have liberated the planet when control of it ultimately fell back to the Gallente. It's kinda like taking a prisoner away from a law enforcement officer, getting tazed by said law enforcement officer and then he takes the prisoner back. At no point was said prisoner freed in any way.


I will grant that the fleet invaded Gallente Space on it's way to the Homeworld. A neccessary evil, given that our Homeworld remains surrounded by Federal territory and that there is no agreed corridor of access from State space to the Homeworld.
If we're going to talk about broken promises, we really do need to focus on the fact that the Federation has broken one treaty (Foiritan's when it launched Highlander) and physically attacked a peace conference (Malkalen) in addition to the original embargo, bombing of civilian targets from space and planetary invasion.

As for not having liberated the planet, after five years of Caldari control the Federation seized control of the space around the planet, Ms Osyn. The planet itself remains under majority control of the Caldari State.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#54 - 2016-07-20 21:05:02 UTC
I think that we can probably agree, Pieter, that given the increasingly erratic and unstable behavior and posturing from Heth leading up to that point, as much as it was a terrible diplomatic decision on the Federation's part, Operation Highlander was arguably the best tactical decision available to the Federation at the time.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2016-07-20 21:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Morwen Lagann wrote:
I think that we can probably agree, Pieter, that given the increasingly erratic and unstable behavior and posturing from Heth leading up to that point, as much as it was a terrible diplomatic decision on the Federation's part, Operation Highlander was arguably the best tactical decision available to the Federation at the time.


Nothing about Highlander struck me as being successful without qualification. I will gladly cede Heth's erratic and unstable behaviour, given what we know about his orders to Shiigeru and the cost paid by the Caldari Navy in ensuring those orders would never be carried out.

To be frank, the question was never whether the Federation would be able to remove Shiigeru from Caldari Prime orbit, it was always what cost that removal would involve. If Admiral Yanala had not been willing to sacrifice her record, her command and the lives of her sailors and officers to prevent an atrocity I would say that an already extremely high price would have become perhaps the greatest single loss of life in New Eden history and that the Federal Navy, at no time, had any control over what that price would be, nor did they have a plan to mitigate any actions that Admiral Yanala could have taken.

I'll leave you to imagine my opinion of the skills of the Federal Navy planners involved in Operation Highlander. Simply put, I'm a Civire and that's not a gamble that I would have taken.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#56 - 2016-07-20 21:36:52 UTC
It's not a gamble I would have taken either. But given Heth's behavior at the time I don't think anyone responsible for the decision-making felt they could trust him not to try ordering an attack on either planet - which, as it happens, he did attempt to order... and most egregiously, not against the planet they were most concerned about.

Note that I didn't say it was a great tactical decision either. Just the best one available at the time, compared to... what, sitting and letting things continue to spiral out of control in the State, and risk him doing something even more stupid than what he'd already gone and shown he was capable of?

It was hardly the ideal solution to the problem for either side, but aside from the lives lost on both sides, it has, thankfully, largely been for the best.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#57 - 2016-07-20 23:48:03 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

I would like to point out that Caldari Prime was never liberated. Only occupied. As the fact that the Federation is now handing it over to Ishukone. As for the Gallente breaking a treaty, let's not get into how many treatys the state broke sending a fleet into Gallente space to begin with... Quid pro quo.

Caldari Prime was liberated 10 June YC110, this date became a national holiday, and I still wonder how ignorant someone might not be aware of it, considering it happened just eight years ago.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mika Firestorm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Logistics
#58 - 2016-07-21 13:37:39 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
Loki Vaako wrote:
He didn't fight for personal glory or honor but for the people, from the most powerful CEO to the waiters in the cafe's. He should be remembered for that.

I hope this statement is a joke.

It seems it is also easy to speak nonsense when you fail to engage a willingness to properly review historical sources. Allow me to enlighten you.

You say he didn't fight for personal glory or honor yet he usurped the traditional values of Caldari society and culture to position himself as the "executor" of the State - a position which has never before in the history of the State existed. To add on to this, he also attempted to dispose of the CEOs of the megacorporations in favor of coercing every megacorporation under his direct control. Potential access to billions of ISK and assets and people, all at his greedy fingertips.

You say he sought to fight for CEOs? That is funny because his actions directly encouraged the removal of the CEO of the largest megacorporation in the State. He casually took the helm instead. What happened under his rule of KK was that he almost single-handedly bankrupted the megacorporation.

You say he sought to fight for the people? Again, this is just a purely ignorant statement. Under his command, millions of Caldari were directly in the crosshairs of warships under orders from a corrupt regime. Any and all opposition to Heth or the CPD was silenced. Thousands of Caldari died because of Heth's lust for power and obedience. The latter part of his rule were some of the darkest times in Caldari history - and yet you mock the lives of those lost under his regime by spouting such ill-informed jibberish? This is shameful.

Please educate yourself before making such posts on the IGS in the future.

Mister, don't blame others in ignorance and lack of historical knowledge when you claim things like these.

Please review historical documents. Heth didn't usurp anything. He was appointed to position of Executor by CEP. If you don't like CEP or Heth, it's your right. But please don't twist facts, you just make yourself looking at least stupid.

His initial rise to power wasn't his own deed. Someone named Xavier Black bought CC for him. That's too obvious that a rioter like him couldn't get that high without someone standing behind his back. He was sort of "Notice me, senpai" person, not "Give me power". Hell, he wasn't even fighting for power when KK ousted him, he just wanted to "Take Caldari Prime back"... well, according to workers who escaped Haatomo station.

For the sake of historical correctness, these things just lay on surface. Don't be a blind hatemonger to ignore that.

State the nature of your medical emergency
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#59 - 2016-07-22 06:17:28 UTC
Mika Firestorm wrote:

Mister, don't blame others in ignorance and lack of historical knowledge when you claim things like these.

Please review historical documents. Heth didn't usurp anything. He was appointed to position of Executor by CEP. If you don't like CEP or Heth, it's your right. But please don't twist facts, you just make yourself looking at least stupid.

His initial rise to power wasn't his own deed. Someone named Xavier Black bought CC for him. That's too obvious that a rioter like him couldn't get that high without someone standing behind his back. He was sort of "Notice me, senpai" person, not "Give me power". Hell, he wasn't even fighting for power when KK ousted him, he just wanted to "Take Caldari Prime back"... well, according to workers who escaped Haatomo station.

For the sake of historical correctness, these things just lay on surface. Don't be a blind hatemonger to ignore that.

I would like to remind you, that Korsavius aren't really Caldari and was dissenting against us even while Tibus Heth was lawful Executor of the State. Though maybe word dissenting isn't correct one, since I don't think his loyalties ever stayed with us. Even now he spews his bile about the person who made the State strong again and returned us Homeworld.

I am also pleasantly surprised you have defended Tibus Heth.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mika Firestorm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Logistics
#60 - 2016-07-22 12:13:47 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

I am also pleasantly surprised you have defended Tibus Heth.

I didn't defend Heth. And I dislike the guy. Also I dislike the guy who twisted historical facts because of guy he disliked. And I disliked him for this.

I have defended the history.

As for Heth himself... I believe he was not suitable for management. Oh, and please, just don't start that I insult him or something like that. I am not going to question his "heroic" deeds, that you so love to cite, nor going to call him names or make up stuff about him. This is just my opinion, that he, while was defending and establishing meritocracy in the State was lacking merit to rule himself. His rhetoric was that "only merited shall rule". But he got his position not himself, not by his merits. He was appointed and pushed by others.

Who would they be, I don't know. Maybe, someone from CEP. But maybe someone even from the other side of the trenches. Have you ever thought, that name Xavier Black sounds suspiciously gallentean? While Tibus Heth was raising the State to war against Federation, was capturing (Im sorry, liberating...) planets, someone on the other side was raising in power and getting authorities they would never be able to achieve without Heth.

Have you thought, that without Heth people like Mentas Blaque wouldn't get his Black Eagles going? He almost turned now the Federation into police state, where his peoples can drag peoples away and even kill them without trial. You don't even have to fight against the Federation open to be dragged by them, you just need to say something good about Caldari, and you will be marked only for that. They even have power to read and listen your private communication going through Federal networks they have access to. And while officially Federation claims to be all about freedom, I don't think I can name where your thoughts will be controlled harder than there.

This all became possible only because someone pushed Heth to a position of authority in the State. Now, what would you think, who could it be?

State the nature of your medical emergency