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Jump Drive Skills
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Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-07-19 16:58:11 UTC
Are they still necessary? Wouldn't it be easier for the hull to define the maximum jump range and isotopes consumed? Then use appropriate modules for reductions in consumption.

Learning skills got removed and embedded into base attributes. Now CCP reduces requirements to open new skills faster and modules. Which is not a bad move. I think jump drive skills need some reconsideration. If you get into a jump capable hull then you can jump. These skills only affect jump capable ships, nothing else.

Embed operation, calibration and conservation into the hull. Less skills, more fun for players. No need to have jump doctrines for people without calib 5 or stress them to train it asap.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2 - 2016-07-19 17:22:55 UTC
So, what skills would you add to keep the training time the same as it is currently?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2016-07-19 17:25:13 UTC
Yes, if you get into these ships, you can jump. And the skills for jump drives determine how far you can jump and how many isotopes you consume. Where is the problem?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#4 - 2016-07-19 18:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavros Pete
@ Diomedes

If you think its necessary to keep the same skilling time, tweak the ship skill to a higher multiplier

@ Luzade

I was thinking uniformity. If you can get the hull, then the hull dictates jump range and consumption , not the skill. In the old days jump cal 5 meant 13ly for a carrier, that was substantial and did create new potential (indirectly the hull dictated range), today caps have uniform jump ranges, I don't see jump skills as necessary as they used to be.
Iain Cariaba
#5 - 2016-07-19 21:11:09 UTC
Mavros Pete wrote:
@ Diomedes

If you think its necessary to keep the same skilling time, tweak the ship skill to a higher multiplier

@ Luzade

I was thinking uniformity. If you can get the hull, then the hull dictates jump range and consumption , not the skill. In the old days jump cal 5 meant 13ly for a carrier, that was substantial and did create new potential (indirectly the hull dictated range), today caps have uniform jump ranges, I don't see jump skills as necessary as they used to be.

The hull does dictate jump range and fuel consumption. Skills merely increase range and decrease fuel consumption from the baseline of the hull.
Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-07-19 22:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavros Pete
Yes, that is true, but as things are much more normalized now, why lose time skilling when you can have that capability embedded in the hull. Jump skills make it more difficult to use a ship to its fullest extend, especially for new players, its not just a module.In the beginning you had skills for everything, since CCP has phased some out like learning skills, I think shifting importance from character to ship class is a bit relevant, open up the class and use it for what it is, without any bottlenecks. After all you have the racial ship skills that defines the class bonuses.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2016-07-19 22:22:12 UTC
Capital ships are not something a newbie should be thinking about anyway.

Please explain why you think caps should be easier to travel in.
Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-07-19 22:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavros Pete
The obvious answer to that is BlackOps, in other words not just caps, and any other future expansion of jump drive to subcaps, if it ever happens.

Access to caps becomes a bit easier skill wise, still retaining the difficulty to max them and get the most out of them. And a lot of newbies think about them, the very same way we did once upon a time. You can do away with JD Operation and Calibration, and embed Conservation as a role in the ship skill, just like Jump Freighters.

All other skills apply to every ship, JD skills only to a specific class which sort of turns them into a bottleneck.

As I said, in the beginning there were skills for everything, since things are getting simplified, JD can follow that paradigm.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2016-07-20 19:20:45 UTC
Mavros Pete wrote:
The obvious answer to that is BlackOps, in other words not just caps, and any other future expansion of jump drive to subcaps, if it ever happens.

Access to caps becomes a bit easier skill wise, still retaining the difficulty to max them and get the most out of them. And a lot of newbies think about them, the very same way we did once upon a time. You can do away with JD Operation and Calibration, and embed Conservation as a role in the ship skill, just like Jump Freighters.

All other skills apply to every ship, JD skills only to a specific class which sort of turns them into a bottleneck.

As I said, in the beginning there were skills for everything, since things are getting simplified, JD can follow that paradigm.


...Black ops take longer to skill into than caps. (105 days for a dread, 117 for a blops, no implants and no remap shenanigans). they also have completely different range, and mechanics, to capital ships.

They're still not something a newbie should be going near.

Please explain how drone skills apply if I'm flying a caracal. or fighter skills if I'm not in a carrier. Or remote rep and logi skills if I'm in a recon. Saying all skills apply to all ships is utter nonsense.

JD skills apply to carriers, supers, dreads, titans, JFs, rorqs, FAX and blops. That's eight classes, all distinct from one another.

This isn't even easier access to caps, since you still need all the supports (As an example, an old dread skillplan I have laying around is a full year of focussed training, and I wouldn't undock with only those skills), it just makes them easier to jump around. Considering all the effort CCP keep going to to make it HARDER to jump caps around, why do you think they should be easier to jump around?
Mavros Pete
Doomheim
#10 - 2016-07-20 20:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mavros Pete
Danika Princip wrote:


...Black ops take longer to skill into than caps. (105 days for a dread, 117 for a blops, no implants and no remap shenanigans). they also have completely different range, and mechanics, to capital ships.


Blackops still utilize skills necessary to fly T1 counterparts, large guns, neuts, no need to skill for capital modules. Jump mechanics are still the same, excluding covops cyno, which is a special purpose cyno.

Danika Princip wrote:

They're still not something a newbie should be going near.


Well a newbie at some point must learn. And noobs are eager to progress. You had that feeling im sure.

Danika Princip wrote:

Please explain how drone skills apply if I'm flying a caracal. or fighter skills if I'm not in a carrier. Or remote rep and logi skills if I'm in a recon. Saying all skills apply to all ships is utter nonsense.


Thats not a valid argument, just because a ship doesn't have a drone bay ( or a bonus). That's hull specific again. Its not that im asking for a caracal to get a jump drive. If you want to use modules of any sort on ships without a role or bonus to them you can still do it (and pray it works). Hospital domis dont get any bonus to reps but still use them. I've seen ecm burst Impels managing to get away. But JD skills only apply to the classes you list below :D

Danika Princip wrote:

JD skills apply to carriers, supers, dreads, titans, JFs, rorqs, FAX and blops. That's eight classes, all distinct from one another.


and AWU 5 apllied for opening up Tactical Weapon reconfiguration, now they taking it to lvl4. It just makes things easier to advance to another class. You still need that for PG purposes (aka fitting skills). But ALL vessels use those. And a good example here is CCP retracting the racial specific skills for fax, unnecessary. Why train a new skill, its a carrier, right? Or a super. No extra hull skills for supers. Its a carrier.

Danika Princip wrote:

This isn't even easier access to caps, since you still need all the supports (As an example, an old dread skillplan I have laying around is a full year of focussed training, and I wouldn't undock with only those skills), it just makes them easier to jump around. Considering all the effort CCP keep going to to make it HARDER to jump caps around, why do you think they should be easier to jump around?



Yes, but support skills you can use on every other ship. You don't make it easier to jump around, the ly restrictions and fatigue are still there, the ship just gives you a bonus to range and fatigue incurred (if it has any). Shouldn't the hull dictate how far you can jump? Once you open up the jump capable class you should be able to use it for what it is . It jumps, you still need all the peripheral skills to use it to its fullest potential.

Jump Drive operation can stay as a skill necessary to get jump drive, makes sense, but calibration and conservation can become hull specific. I don't see any fatigue skills in existence reducing overall fatigue, that's dictated by hull (in case it has a bonus).

Hopefully you can see my argument, they are way too class specific, I think we can do without them.