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Are Hurricanes pointless?
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Umega
Solis Mensa
#101 - 2012-01-16 02:36:08 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:

Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway



Ok - I'm in troll feeding mood...

And your problem with that is?

You claim a curse is better at neuting than a cane - true - you claim is a deimos can keep up with a cane - probably true.

Probably that's because a ship that's basically free to lose and can be flown by any 1-month old is supposed to be worse than more skill- and cost intensive specialized ships in their specialized roles.

Sheesh - what's next?

"Reapers are pointless because I can't solo an Erebus with it"?

I don't have a problem with it and I'm not trolling. I don't know why you all get so defensive. What I'm saying is is, we're not 1 month old characters anymore, and yet people are still flying canes in horrible fleet compositions instead of the superior alternatives. I am asking why, when it is pointless to do so. Or maybe there has been something I've overlooked. If this thread is any indication, people fly acane over other ships because of it's tank, which I find rather amusing as it has quite a poor tank for a BC


Why cane.. because people are lemmings. First n foremost. Usually led by lemming FC/CEOs that fabricate nothing on their own, and imploy out-dated tactics that can get torn up by the stuff that isn't talked about much on the EVE forums for good reason.. or new strategies/counters that are brought up get buried by all the lemmings not knowing any better on here. Why they don't know any better.. idk, idiots, forum warriors, dopplegangers :shrugs:

Secondly.. cane is cost effective.. coupled with decent to good at everything, master at nothing. It is a good ship.. but being master of nothing leaves holes for the masters to wreck it, repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, good ship.

Put One and Two together.. when you consistantly get blown up.. you start to lean towards the cheaper option, that also carries a stigma of 'win'-matar.

If you are running in not very organized groups, led by not very good FCs.. you want a very versitle cheap ship, cane delivers here. This right here I believe is the answer to the Cane's popularity.

 Ume-Pro Studios
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-01-16 03:06:30 UTC
Explosive damage > Kinetic damage
Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#103 - 2012-01-16 03:11:53 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Explosive damage > Kinetic damage
Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones.


This could perhaps have been true back before almost every sub battleship in the explored universe was shield tanked... but now? I'm not sure its so true anymore. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-01-16 03:14:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Explosive damage > Kinetic damage
Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones.


This could perhaps have been true back before almost every sub battleship in the explored universe was shield tanked... but now? I'm not sure its so true anymore. :)

-Liang

Also, EM damage > Kinetic damage
Guess which race has access to both EM and Explosive damage, and can switch between them at a whim?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#105 - 2012-01-16 03:16:18 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Explosive damage > Kinetic damage
Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones.


This could perhaps have been true back before almost every sub battleship in the explored universe was shield tanked... but now? I'm not sure its so true anymore. :)

-Liang

Also, EM damage > Kinetic damage
Guess which race has access to both EM and Explosive damage, and can switch between them at a whim?


The ability to deal flexible damage types is nice, certainly, but there's an awful lot of omnitanking out there these days. I don't tend to worry about damage type unless I have clear evidence that I should (such as when I'm facing a T2 ship).

-Liang

Ed: Afterall, a 10 second reload penalty is hardly at a whim. Blink

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2012-01-16 03:36:05 UTC
Switching damage types isn't really important in PVP like it is in PVE. Lol bears
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#107 - 2012-01-16 16:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
I would like to point out that no Tornado can point at all really and live to tell the tale, armour canes can brawl in and short point and burn down, shield canes can kite, still have enough EHP to hold out and long point and do DPS.

The Tornado is a good gank platform that is all, it can do one thing, deal damage, that makes it better than the Cane at dealing damage, it is nowhere near as functional or as versatile. And it cant tear frigs apart the way Hurricanes most certainly can.

And yeah canes aren't useful in logi fights or anything, its not like my Hurricane tanked an entire gang yesterday without even turning up the temps.

EDIT: And yeah people never change damage types, its not like some ships have naturally exploitable resist holes, sorry am I being a carebear with all my PVP talk.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2012-01-16 17:05:12 UTC
Umega wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:

Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway



Ok - I'm in troll feeding mood...

And your problem with that is?

You claim a curse is better at neuting than a cane - true - you claim is a deimos can keep up with a cane - probably true.

Probably that's because a ship that's basically free to lose and can be flown by any 1-month old is supposed to be worse than more skill- and cost intensive specialized ships in their specialized roles.

Sheesh - what's next?

"Reapers are pointless because I can't solo an Erebus with it"?

I don't have a problem with it and I'm not trolling. I don't know why you all get so defensive. What I'm saying is is, we're not 1 month old characters anymore, and yet people are still flying canes in horrible fleet compositions instead of the superior alternatives. I am asking why, when it is pointless to do so. Or maybe there has been something I've overlooked. If this thread is any indication, people fly acane over other ships because of it's tank, which I find rather amusing as it has quite a poor tank for a BC


Why cane.. because people are lemmings. First n foremost. Usually led by lemming FC/CEOs that fabricate nothing on their own, and imploy out-dated tactics that can get torn up by the stuff that isn't talked about much on the EVE forums for good reason.. or new strategies/counters that are brought up get buried by all the lemmings not knowing any better on here. Why they don't know any better.. idk, idiots, forum warriors, dopplegangers :shrugs:

Secondly.. cane is cost effective.. coupled with decent to good at everything, master at nothing. It is a good ship.. but being master of nothing leaves holes for the masters to wreck it, repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, good ship.

Put One and Two together.. when you consistantly get blown up.. you start to lean towards the cheaper option, that also carries a stigma of 'win'-matar.

If you are running in not very organized groups, led by not very good FCs.. you want a very versitle cheap ship, cane delivers here. This right here I believe is the answer to the Cane's popularity.

I agree that the 'Cane is still relevant due to its cost-effectiveness and versatility. I can fit artillery to the thing and snipe out to 60-70km while still having a flight of drones + the ability to fit a neut or two for anti-tackle. I can get a 60+k EHP tank on it alongside dualwebs or web+ewar. I can point-range kite with it in a shield/nano setup. I can passive tank it or active armor tank it for PvE. It can be useful for Incursions in a pinch. And in any one of these cases, I'm spending no more than 150-200mil for the complete package, and the hull is fully insurable. And yes, logis CAN keep 'Canes alive (I've only had a couple of moments in Incursions where I even had to consider heating hardeners, and an OTA can hammer you pretty darn good if you ask me). Also, I can fly it solo, in a quick-and-dirty small gang, or as supplemental DPS in a fleet. (And don't try to say that HACs>BCs in all cases. I wonder why there's a reason I've only ever seen a HAC, like, once in W-space PvP? BTW: don't try to tell me the Hurricane is terrible at tanking, the Harbinger is just as good (or bad) and comes from a race that is supposed to know how to tank ships)

And even if you have good combat FCs, you still will have a need to be able to throw a quick-response gang together and go, instead of waiting half an hour to try to assemble a doctrinal fleet composition (getting logistics pilots in particular is a big thorn in your side in that case, as people tend not to have 2-3 different logistics cruisers with them wherever they go even if they can fly logis).
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-01-16 17:40:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
I ask you again.
What you're asking was never in question, so why are you asking?

that's how Tippia get's crap load of posts (and possible likes). Evading any direct question and posting posts w/o content....
Forum people like it Big smile

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2012-01-16 18:17:10 UTC
Nice topic sofar.

Canes should only be pointless if you don't intend to PvP with them.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#111 - 2012-01-16 19:22:29 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Nice topic sofar.

Canes should only be pointless if you don't intend to PvP with them.


Surprised nobody had done that yet to be honest.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-01-16 19:32:07 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
is the Hurricane now obsolete?

No, it is still p. good at ganking plexing tengus.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-01-16 21:16:56 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
is the Hurricane now obsolete?

No, it is still p. good at ganking plexing tengus.

C, although plexing Proteus (in a Pulsar no less) in our case. (We were on the giving end of the gank, of course.)
Aisha's Vengence
#114 - 2012-01-16 21:25:55 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
is the Hurricane now obsolete?

No, it is still p. good at ganking plexing tengus.

C, although plexing Proteus (in a Pulsar no less) in our case. (We were on the giving end of the gank, of course.)


Explosive holes are always ripe for suprisebuttsex
Guillaume Adoulin
Overclocker.
Rote Kapelle
#115 - 2012-01-19 20:57:34 UTC
10/10

Very nice posting. 6 pages and nobody picked up on what i felt was a pretty obvious troll considering all the recent whining about Tier 2 BC being OP.
Jaa-Ko Arakal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2012-01-19 23:49:48 UTC
This troll started really stupid, but then everyone fell for it.

8.5/10
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#117 - 2012-01-20 03:25:54 UTC
Tier 3 BCs "troll" the fields, cause they have to face tier 2 BCs. Aka ships with roughly 1/2 the dmg projection, that get tracked pretty well by large turrets - especially if those are fielded by the talos (no, not the 2x web talos).

For ranged, med-large gang combat, the advantages of Tier 3s is obvious. You can think them as HACs on steroids, with 2-3x the dmg projection, similar speed and bonused ranges, superior cap in most cases etc. Oracles with Guardians play ala Hellcat fleets pretty well, Artie tornados re-define the small-medium alpha gang, nano-nados and taloses take apart nano-hacs and nano-Tier 2s.

For small gang and or solo (lulz) the Tier 2s are still way more versatile, quite cheaper (i think you fit rigged Tier2s for 70M and Tier 3s for 110M, or close) and if the ASs get the suggested boost, Tier3s could become a less obvious choice.

Ppl trolling and whining about the weakness of each ship, make the already ***** pilots more cautious. Tier 3s have obvious weaknesses, but you cannot exploit those when nobody takes risks outside the "perfect scenario" of engagement for each one.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell