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[118.7] Warp Bubble Dragging Change

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2016-07-17 05:42:21 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i think it would be better just to get citadels off gate grids

Only need to get citadels out of firing range of gate grids. There is no harm in them showing up on the overview.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Anthar Thebess
#222 - 2016-07-18 11:04:28 UTC
Can we get citadels closer to gates, like 50 km off tether range will be perfect.
If someone own the space he should be able to do whatever he likes.
EVE nullsec is sandbox - why add rules that negate this sandbox?

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Cade Windstalker
#223 - 2016-07-18 14:06:56 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can we get citadels closer to gates, like 50 km off tether range will be perfect.
If someone own the space he should be able to do whatever he likes.
EVE nullsec is sandbox - why add rules that negate this sandbox?


Rules don't negate the sandbox, but broken risk/reward situations can damage play in it. If you want to block of part of your space then put ships out there, at risk, and get shot at in return. You want to have Citadels as a bolt-hole then great, put them on-grid and warp to them if you need to dock up or repair, should be a fantastic defensive advantage if you use it correctly.
Anthar Thebess
#224 - 2016-07-19 08:43:36 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can we get citadels closer to gates, like 50 km off tether range will be perfect.
If someone own the space he should be able to do whatever he likes.
EVE nullsec is sandbox - why add rules that negate this sandbox?


Rules don't negate the sandbox, but broken risk/reward situations can damage play in it. If you want to block of part of your space then put ships out there, at risk, and get shot at in return. You want to have Citadels as a bolt-hole then great, put them on-grid and warp to them if you need to dock up or repair, should be a fantastic defensive advantage if you use it correctly.


This was a troll, but troll to protect sandbox.

Balancing a ship or game is one thing, but balancing things to compensate someone lack of skill or willingness to learn is another.
Bubbles where never a huge issue, they provide a lot of game play options - and the only thing that is missing is the lack of killmails for them.
If we get kill-mails, roaming gangs will clear the gates by them self.

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Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#225 - 2016-07-19 09:13:49 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
This was a troll, but troll to protect sandbox.

Balancing a ship or game is one thing, but balancing things to compensate someone lack of skill or willingness to learn is another.
Bubbles where never a huge issue, they provide a lot of game play options - and the only thing that is missing is the lack of killmails for them.
If we get kill-mails, roaming gangs will clear the gates by them self.

I have my doubts. If you organize a group op for a roam...yes you can run happily through null smashing all of the anchored bubbles and generate lots of positive isk killmails for your corp. But that's not really engaging content for anybody involved. How many people are going to sign up for that roam the second time the op is organized? The third?

I find it very hard to imagine people would go for that on a regular basis. I can only speak for myself on this, but I would get more enjoyment over running yet another level 4 mission, because at least that nets me some isk and the game interacts back with me. Smashing anchored bubbles is just as engaging as mining, with none of the rewards and much more wasted time. I don't imagine killmails will suddenly make that activity any more exciting for people.

Yes, I can be wrong, I'm just saying I find your scenario implausible. I'm all for bubble killmails, and if your perception actually works out, fantastic! I just don't see it coming to fruition.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Cade Windstalker
#226 - 2016-07-19 13:23:09 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
This was a troll, but troll to protect sandbox.

Balancing a ship or game is one thing, but balancing things to compensate someone lack of skill or willingness to learn is another.
Bubbles where never a huge issue, they provide a lot of game play options - and the only thing that is missing is the lack of killmails for them.
If we get kill-mails, roaming gangs will clear the gates by them self.


The unwillingness to learn is on the part of the people who are now seemingly unable to defend their space without an invulnerable citadel and a bunch of bubbles sitting off a gate.

On-gate Citadels are massive reward for zero risk, which is massively un-Eve, that's why they lose out here.

As for the idea that Bubbles just need kill-mails... that's ridiculous. Bubbles cost about as much as a T2 Frigate, and have about as much HP as a Carrier. No one wants to sit through the time required to kill even one, especially in hostile territory, let alone more than one.

Plus, if those bubbles are sitting on top of a Citadel, then no one is going to be able to sit around and kill them without dying. For a 20 million ISK killmail. That didn't itself shoot back.

Right, totally something people are going to actively do because that sounds like so much fun.Roll
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#227 - 2016-07-19 16:51:28 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
This was a troll, but troll to protect sandbox.

Balancing a ship or game is one thing, but balancing things to compensate someone lack of skill or willingness to learn is another.
Bubbles where never a huge issue, they provide a lot of game play options - and the only thing that is missing is the lack of killmails for them.
If we get kill-mails, roaming gangs will clear the gates by them self.


The unwillingness to learn is on the part of the people who are now seemingly unable to defend their space without an invulnerable citadel and a bunch of bubbles sitting off a gate.

On-gate Citadels are massive reward for zero risk, which is massively un-Eve, that's why they lose out here.

As for the idea that Bubbles just need kill-mails... that's ridiculous. Bubbles cost about as much as a T2 Frigate, and have about as much HP as a Carrier. No one wants to sit through the time required to kill even one, especially in hostile territory, let alone more than one.

Plus, if those bubbles are sitting on top of a Citadel, then no one is going to be able to sit around and kill them without dying. For a 20 million ISK killmail. That didn't itself shoot back.

Right, totally something people are going to actively do because that sounds like so much fun.Roll


Bubbles are just like any other structure - except for the fact that they do not generate lossmails for the enemy. I know plenty of people who will sign up to go shoot a POS. I've known plenty of roaming gangs who will stick around to shoot MTU's after scanning them down. If it causes losses for your enemy and generates a killmail for you, people will do it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Cade Windstalker
#228 - 2016-07-20 03:12:15 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Bubbles are just like any other structure - except for the fact that they do not generate lossmails for the enemy. I know plenty of people who will sign up to go shoot a POS. I've known plenty of roaming gangs who will stick around to shoot MTU's after scanning them down. If it causes losses for your enemy and generates a killmail for you, people will do it.


Bit of a difference between a fleet formed to do those things, and especially a fleet formed to shoot something that drops loot, and whacking away and anywhere between one and a dozen or more balls of a quarter million HP each, just to clear one gate.

I'm not saying I'm against bubbles generating kill mails, I'm all for it, but I don't think that solves the issue with bubbles on Citadels. If nothing else at that point what you're actually doing is signing up to shoot a Citadel that can't be directly hurt, and the enemy takes basically no risk for it.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#229 - 2016-07-21 17:37:39 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
after physics stopped excreting masonry.

Oh man I just fell out of my chair. Thanks for that XD


Ahahaha, happy to help! Big smile

Soldarius wrote:
I'm all for clarity. But reducing the range of anchored bubbles to some arbitrary distance doesn't really seem like the way to go about it. Can't we just update the in-game info to specify what their max range is? I was under the impression that they operated on a grid-wide basis.



This is incorrect, they used to before grids were expanded. Now they're 1km drag-side and any distance incoming-side. This change is pretty much just about standardizing mechanics.

I would imagine there are also a few potential exploits involving grid-warping that this removes as well.


Many many many expansions ago, you used to be abel to put them in between gates and pull people out of warp.
Cade Windstalker
#230 - 2016-07-22 01:26:51 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is incorrect, they used to before grids were expanded. Now they're 1km drag-side and any distance incoming-side. This change is pretty much just about standardizing mechanics.

I would imagine there are also a few potential exploits involving grid-warping that this removes as well.


Many many many expansions ago, you used to be abel to put them in between gates and pull people out of warp.


Yup, but that was long enough ago as to not be relevant to this discussion.
Anthar Thebess
#231 - 2016-07-22 10:51:26 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is incorrect, they used to before grids were expanded. Now they're 1km drag-side and any distance incoming-side. This change is pretty much just about standardizing mechanics.

I would imagine there are also a few potential exploits involving grid-warping that this removes as well.


Many many many expansions ago, you used to be abel to put them in between gates and pull people out of warp.


Yup, but that was long enough ago as to not be relevant to this discussion.

Good old days.
When eve was grate.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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Lasko Ferrani
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#232 - 2016-07-23 03:47:56 UTC
No real reason to mess with the bubble anchor distance. You're only going to get caught if you don't use tacticals. Could see maybe making the point defense a non-repeating module so has to have someone keeping it running or maybe giving it a limit on the number of pulses it does per activation so it's can't be pure AFK and still kill.
Cade Windstalker
#233 - 2016-07-23 04:55:38 UTC
Lasko Ferrani wrote:
No real reason to mess with the bubble anchor distance.


Except for the whole zero-risk Citadels thing. It isn't even the AFKing that's the problem, it's the zero risk factor.

Read through the rest of this thread and you'll find that people have addressed the rest of your post and why "use tacticals" isn't a valid counter point for this not being a broken mechanic.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2016-07-24 10:46:37 UTC
Arizan Holosalintan wrote:
I disagree

Currently there are interdiction nullified ships present in the game, allowing for the avoidance of Citadel drag bubbles. Travel ceptors are unlockable and should be used to scout your routes. If you're travelling a route you haven't scouted, it should the defender who has the advantage.

Grids are currently 8'000km. Grids of this size would be not be fully utilized if we're only going to use 500km.

Warp disruption bubbles and drag bubbling allow for grid manipulation and control. The ability to change the terrain and manipulate it allows for interesting scenarios to develop based upon point of origin and setup.

Bubble camping a gate with a citadel only puts you in range of the PDS systems, as such small things (if you haven't scouted your) will be affected. If you have scouted your route, why are you warping gate to gate? Shouldn't you bounce from a moon, planet or anomaly to avoid bubble?

If you're bigger, haven't scouted, and land in the bubble depending on the ship you have you'll land in a warp bubble as normal and suffer the consequences.

Citadel camping, i.e being on a citadel with carriers and attacking people on the gate bubbles won't be fixed by this.
Being in a Citadel camping with the PDS smart bombs won't save you from a manned gate camp.

So in brief this change is an attempt to protect travel from manned gate camps. Which it won't prevent because apparently the smart bombs on citadels are too OP (which they aren't) on account of people traveling through space without scouting (which they shouldn't).

Does that about cover it?

I think it would be a good idea for CCP to get away from the general perception / truth that playing EvE requires two accounts minimum. Essentially new people look at that and go "why would I want to pay $30.00 for a 15 year old game, double the usual sub of current MMO's, for the hassle of needing to multi-box two accounts simply so I can travel around without getting insta killed by the rich and powerful older players?".

The emphasis should be imo, on the attacker doing work to get kills, not on the defender paying double and doing double work while the attacker sits immobile and invulnerable doing nothing but a click and press.



CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#235 - 2016-07-25 03:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I think it would be a good idea for CCP to get away from the general perception / truth that playing EvE requires two accounts minimum. Essentially new people look at that and go "why would I want to pay $30.00 for a 15 year old game, double the usual sub of current MMO's, for the hassle of needing to multi-box two accounts simply so I can travel around without getting insta killed by the rich and powerful older players?".

The emphasis should be imo, on the attacker doing work to get kills, not on the defender paying double and doing double work while the attacker sits immobile and invulnerable doing nothing but a click and press.




You do not need more than one account to play this game. However, if you do not, you either need friends to make up for such things you cannot accomplish on your own (scouting and burning pings for the topic at hand). First and foremost being preplaning your route through hostile space, which includes not only looking at your route ahead of time, but also traveling that path in a ceptor and bookmarking your own pings. If that sounds like too much then maybe some people are expecting too much hand holding for their solo lifestyle in this harsh MMO.


EDIT- Also you and I have two very different definitions for the words attacker and defender. Considering if they're in my space, they are the attacker and I am the defender. If they warped into my bubble camp then they fell prey to my defensive operation.
vikari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#236 - 2016-07-25 07:28:55 UTC
Huge supporter of this change!

500km is more then enough to play a major strategic role in things. Whether you are stopping people from roaming easily to slowing a fleet from running.

The only major effect I see is that this would stop citadels from being used as the new gate camp. The citadel wasn't meant to be part of a gate camp or some stargate protection scheme. It's here to replace POS, and other structures in space. If you want to protect your sov from people, one guy in a citadel isn't a reasonable way to do it. Make a fleet.
neggies
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#237 - 2016-07-27 08:04:25 UTC
You could solve this by giving bubbles an internal 'capacitor' of sorts used to generate the field, that lasts (say) 24 hours, which can be replenished by anyone in the launching alliance right clicking on it and hitting "recharge", or maybe by loading in a single unit of jump fuel or stront or something.

Doesn't break the tactic (as I have nothing against the idea of citadel camping in the first place, ultimately someone still has to be present to man citadel weaponry and it's pretty easy to dodge a citadel camp by bouncing to an anom or celestial) but would mean that some actual effort would have to be put in (and discourage massive ****-you walls of 25+ bubbles).

Would also potentially allow for the interesting option of neuting down bubbles if you make it an actual capacitor like a ship. You'd want to make it pretty big. Might be cool.

You could also just limit the number of bubbles on-grid with each other.

As for the issue of landing in the center of larger blobs of bubbles, I've experienced this personally (and it sucks major ass) and can't help but wonder how much effort it would be for CCP to dump you on the edge of only the bubble nearest to your destination.
Lexx Devi
Freeport . 7
#238 - 2016-08-02 10:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexx Devi
So i se 2 camps to this.

1st Deffending camp:
Is trying to engineer a way to kill of enemies that dont pay attention, this is a effective way to turn a tide.
Its a engineer feauture a sand castle and most likley trying to keep non pvp ships & "Friendship" safe.

2nd Offending/Traveling party:
Traveling from gate to gate is difficult as they get caught loosing alot of ships to a firewall,
Still this can with a super high% can easily be circumvented with proper scouting & planning.

*My view, As scanning & transporting in null.
Fleets "Navigate" Space?
Why allow fleets to run gate to gate & not navigate systems to safty/desto?
With interdicted nullifyed scouts able of seeing these dangers, burn ping or get the the fleet to bounce of cilestials.

LAZY non-scouting dangerous space?
Salthy gamers wanting everything to be easier?
I scout & Dscan when flying ALONE & still not getting caugth.

Its like Not using a water to put out fire. Lets make fire harmless.

*Keep Bubbled on 1000km, make the ppl have a challange & learn the good way. The hard way of LIFE.
*Help your fleet, SCOUT!

The M,L,XL citadel is a Weaponized platform, make it frequently used or let it be a dusty 6Ponder no one ever uses.
The Citadel Will replace Station & Citadel.
It is NOT the same as a POS, make it new, its intresting. Think "Outside The POS"
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#239 - 2016-08-02 10:12:20 UTC
Problem with citadels was they're immune. Any other kind of gatecamp can at least be engaged. Just because they can be circumvented doesn't make an immune doomsday alright.
Lexx Devi
Freeport . 7
#240 - 2016-08-02 10:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexx Devi
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Problem with citadels was they're immune. Any other kind of gatecamp can at least be engaged. Just because they can be circumvented doesn't make an immune doomsday alright.


Immune yes, if its camping you 0on gate kill it of it cant even target you your not in danger.

Ok, i hear what your saying. im looking from as many senarios as i can imagine,
Attacking, Deffending, Camper, Victim, Owner, Grefer, Rage, Troll, FC, Miner, Transporter.

This is my responce:

If your sitting on the gate "Your Not Camped" by a citadel, its 1000km of.
You faild at scouting yes you get stuck. Still, "your not camped"
If you sitt on gate no "your not camped" by citadel.

If theres a weapon that reaches from the citadel, if the "doomsday" can, then change the Doomsday.

This forum sounds more like a place for controling the game then contributing.
Everyone Wants their own view to succed without the tougth of anyone else but their known friends.

Sounds like your saying its sitting on 0km off the gate.