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State of Eve: War Dec
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#441 - 2016-07-15 07:28:10 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


So your words are hollow, you are no longer a null sec alliance, you are skulking in lowsec, you lose more ships then for example hisec corps or alliances and yet you just ignore it and don't even fight back and you have the cheek to tell people in hisec to fight them and its easy. All mouth and no trousers...


What? Whatever....talk about a non-sequitur, that seems to be your specialty.


So you give advice that you do not follow yourself, simple stuff really.


I am not the alliance leader, nor the corp CEO and I have little interest in hunting down war targets. So, no I am not about to go chasing war targets currently.

However, when I did have an industrial/mission running character in a HS corp that advice I gave is exactly what we did.


So you do not want to go chasing war targets, there you go, you said it..., NEXT!!!!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#442 - 2016-07-15 07:28:30 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


So you give advice that you do not follow yourself, simple stuff really.

Dracvlad wrote:


Some of those players actually do fight war decs, there are some that ally with defenders in wars all the time and are damn good at it.


And

Dracvlad wrote:


So you give advice that you do not follow yourself, simple stuff really.


So...my advice was good...or it was bad and those AG guys who do team up are just bad? Which is it?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#443 - 2016-07-15 08:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


So you give advice that you do not follow yourself, simple stuff really.

Dracvlad wrote:


Some of those players actually do fight war decs, there are some that ally with defenders in wars all the time and are damn good at it.


And

Dracvlad wrote:


So you give advice that you do not follow yourself, simple stuff really.


So...my advice was good...or it was bad and those AG guys who do team up are just bad? Which is it?


What the advice that your alliance does not follow because its not worth it as you so basically put it:

Quote:
I am not the alliance leader, nor the corp CEO and I have little interest in hunting down war targets. So, no I am not about to go chasing war targets currently.


What tactic would you use to get a kill on a GTFO fast locking Svipul for example?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#444 - 2016-07-15 14:20:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Why should the target always have a chance to fight back?.


Think about that question...


Okay, I have, so?

This e-bushido nonsense is just that, nonsense.


Your comment is nonsense..., no one except for you is talking about e-bushido, crawl back to your hole of incompetence in EXE.


If a guy decides to overload his freighter, set destination, undock and click autopilot...does he deserve a chance to fight back? He has made several serious mistakes. He was stupid. Blindingly stupid. This is game where your actions have consequences, and if one is blindingly stupid one does not have a right to fight back. Being imprudent in this game often comes with a substantial cost.

Same thing goes when players would blind jump their carrier to a cyno beacon without first checking out the system. If a player does that and is tackled and a group drops on him and obliterates his carrier...well, he was dumb. Having no chance to fight back in any meaningful sense is something I don't see a problem with. He was dumb.

If you undock in a mission boat and start running missions during an active war dec and get caught in a fit designed to tank a specific type of rat...well you were imprudent and if you have no chance to fight back in a meaningful way that is a result of choices that were made after being warned you in an war with another corporation.

No, not everyone should have a chance to fight back.



While this is true I don't think that's what he meant. Pedro was talking about large PvP (powerful) vs small indy corps (weak), in which case the one corp of course doesn't stand a chance.

It was indeed you who brought up e-bushido out of the blue, then antiganking and now freighters.

I know that's not your usual style; you guys all have running convo's in AFK cloaking and such as well, so I guess this one wandered off on its own...

When I first read the line "Why should the target always have a chance to fight back?" I immediately made a distinction between "a chance to fight back" and "win". Not because you have a chance to fight that victory is at hand but there is however an engagement.

You can't engage people who drop, you can't engage people with no assets on the line. To take a less-obvious example: You cannot wardec a station trader who pisses you off because you can't fight him. You cannot wardec the 24 procurers and skiffs clogging up Your favourite icebelt because they're NPC corp and you can't fight them.

Simple analogy for us nullduders: you can attack sov but you cannot fight NPCnul or lowsec. (granted, you can kind-of-hellcamp but with instaundocks..... no really eh?)

There's a lot anyone can put in that singe quote, and while I liked "Think about that question..." as a mental excercise to all, it may be a bad idea to discuss around it because nothing's actually been said. You can read a lot into it that's simply not there, or you can return to Pedro's original point of view and not single out one line; but basically I don't think you'll find fault there:

Not everyone has a chance for victory.
Not everyone even has a chance to fight.
(unless on the forums: here everyone fights ;-)

and yet somehow I see antiganking and freighters and even the personification of Teckos as if he were EXE's soundboard. He's just one guy with an opinion man. Teckos does not think spacehonour exists -- I do. I'd even go further and say that as a merc, your honour is your currency; but in this case I'd like to share a short story that may change Teckos' mind after all:

you think this is a video game, and that the notion of some self-imposed rule or "E-bushido" is utter Bravo Sierra right?
I could theorize the opposite outcome for the same reason: I think this is a video game, therefore I am willing to impose some rules I may not follow in real life because here I'm not starving and immortal.
The proof of the pudding, however, is that you've already been called out for being EXE / Goon. You have been classified, or otherwise put, the actions of the whole reflect on Your individual. You didn't blunder into lowsec and told them to pay or be conquered, right? You didn't. But your overlords did. Therefore, your choice of leaders reflects on your character now.

In another thread I had a conversation once, a quite civilized for a chnge and therefore shortlived LOL-- anyway, a conversation about Ransoms. Would you still pay ransom to Random Dude numer 58 when dudes 1-57 took your money and popped you anyway? No.

These examples, my friend, are e-bushido at work.

You better start believing in it. Hubcamper mercs have a reputation. Goons have a reputation. The Wraithguard may perhaps not have a widespread reputation and Brokk certainly doesn't, but we go in the same bag with "roaming pirates". And the actions of one band of roaming pirates reflect on how you'd respond to the next gang of roaming pirates.

Therefore (and now I'm coming close to a point haha) if anyone were to start a new merc business in highsec, they may want to distinguish themselves as far as possible from regular highsec mercs -- to avoid a bag of prejudice.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#445 - 2016-07-15 14:44:52 UTC
I've tried. I really really have, to follow this thread.
Unfortunately it's devolved into three or four of you volleying back and forth without any progress aside from raised tempers and rampant quotings.

As a former merc who was involved in deccing mass quantities and hunting people in their back yards... I do have to say that much of what fuels the invective around war deccing corps and war decs is driven by the psychological aspect of the game. People ASSUME that they can't fight back. If they even bother to do any investigative work at all, they see the high kill efficiency of the corp/alliance that is deccing them and then they stop looking further. That is enough. 98% efficiency? OMFG, there's no way we can win.
The mind game is powerful, no bullshit there.
I've seen corps of 300+ players scatter like leaves, lose 25+ percent of their members and straight up hide when they found out the Devils were coming for them. And we were coming. The sad truth is that if they had rallied their courage, went and did some research, and came up with a plan to fight back they could have easily made the war that followed much less one sided.
It almost never happened.
People are too quick to look at the numbers and too slow to read the story behind them.
Most of our fights only involved a handful of us at best.
Most of them were in small ships because we were doing the courtesy of paying a house call twenty to forty jumps away, so bigger slower ships just weren't practical.
Fighting back WAS a viable option, but elements such as fear, poor leadership and terrible communication kept it from happening.

Now, things have changed somewhat. To do war in the manner of the Devils now requires weeks if not months of stalking a potential target, learning their habits and watering holes, finding out what they fly... and THEN war decking them and becoming their special friend. Honestly, if you're going to put in that much effort to be able to effectively hunt your target you're not going to just drop a week long wardec on them.
You are going to hunt them to death.
It's really the only viable option for getting any kind of return on the effort you now have to put into having a war with any real result other than wasted ISK on the fee.

The alternative is mass decs where you simply dec everything in site and camp the pipes and trade hubs.
The era of contract mercs who made some corp's life interesting for a week or two at the behest of a third party employer is coming to an end due to the impracticality of prosecuting such an action in a manner that makes the employer's investment worthwhile.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#446 - 2016-07-15 16:13:08 UTC
^^ It's turned into a car crash thread, you know you shouldn't look but you just can't help yourself.

On that note, it's time for more popcorn

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#447 - 2016-07-15 18:37:50 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:



While this is true I don't think that's what he meant. Pedro was talking about large PvP (powerful) vs small indy corps (weak), in which case the one corp of course doesn't stand a chance.

It was indeed you who brought up e-bushido out of the blue, then antiganking and now freighters.

I know that's not your usual style; you guys all have running convo's in AFK cloaking and such as well, so I guess this one wandered off on its own...

When I first read the line "Why should the target always have a chance to fight back?" I immediately made a distinction between "a chance to fight back" and "win". Not because you have a chance to fight that victory is at hand but there is however an engagement.

You can't engage people who drop, you can't engage people with no assets on the line. To take a less-obvious example: You cannot wardec a station trader who pisses you off because you can't fight him. You cannot wardec the 24 procurers and skiffs clogging up Your favourite icebelt because they're NPC corp and you can't fight them.

Simple analogy for us nullduders: you can attack sov but you cannot fight NPCnul or lowsec. (granted, you can kind-of-hellcamp but with instaundocks..... no really eh?)

There's a lot anyone can put in that singe quote, and while I liked "Think about that question..." as a mental excercise to all, it may be a bad idea to discuss around it because nothing's actually been said. You can read a lot into it that's simply not there, or you can return to Pedro's original point of view and not single out one line; but basically I don't think you'll find fault there:

Not everyone has a chance for victory.
Not everyone even has a chance to fight.
(unless on the forums: here everyone fights ;-)

and yet somehow I see antiganking and freighters and even the personification of Teckos as if he were EXE's soundboard. He's just one guy with an opinion man. Teckos does not think spacehonour exists -- I do. I'd even go further and say that as a merc, your honour is your currency; but in this case I'd like to share a short story that may change Teckos' mind after all:

you think this is a video game, and that the notion of some self-imposed rule or "E-bushido" is utter Bravo Sierra right?
I could theorize the opposite outcome for the same reason: I think this is a video game, therefore I am willing to impose some rules I may not follow in real life because here I'm not starving and immortal.
The proof of the pudding, however, is that you've already been called out for being EXE / Goon. You have been classified, or otherwise put, the actions of the whole reflect on Your individual. You didn't blunder into lowsec and told them to pay or be conquered, right? You didn't. But your overlords did. Therefore, your choice of leaders reflects on your character now.

In another thread I had a conversation once, a quite civilized for a chnge and therefore shortlived LOL-- anyway, a conversation about Ransoms. Would you still pay ransom to Random Dude numer 58 when dudes 1-57 took your money and popped you anyway? No.

These examples, my friend, are e-bushido at work.

You better start believing in it. Hubcamper mercs have a reputation. Goons have a reputation. The Wraithguard may perhaps not have a widespread reputation and Brokk certainly doesn't, but we go in the same bag with "roaming pirates". And the actions of one band of roaming pirates reflect on how you'd respond to the next gang of roaming pirates.

Therefore (and now I'm coming close to a point haha) if anyone were to start a new merc business in highsec, they may want to distinguish themselves as far as possible from regular highsec mercs -- to avoid a bag of prejudice.


My point about e-bushido is that you do what you have to do to "win" be it blowing up the other players ship or something else. All tactics are viable and available. If it means you send in a bait ship and then drop a bigger and heavier fleet on their heads, fine. You ambush them on a gate when they are least prepared? Fine. Making it so it is hard or even impossible to fight back? Fine. Infiltrate their alliance/corporation and wreak havoc by doing Bad Things™, fine.

Like the concept of bushido, these notions are to "civilize" the game. Bushido was a later 16th century concept in Japan invented by the Tokugawa Shogunate to basically turn samurai, who were practical warriors, into bureaucrats. That is how I see many of these proposals. Either intentionally or unintentionally to de-fang those who like PvP and like the fact that there are damn few rules here and use mechanics in creative and unexpected ways to generate interesting outcomes.

This notion of a fair fight or even a fight where you have a "chance" is just complete Bravo Sierra because that is not the type of game we are playing here. Anyone who wants that, try World of Tanks or something like that where they have a match maker that tries to even the odds.

And the problem is not one of mechanics when it comes to war decs. It is one of attitude, by and large. One side wants to fight and knows how. The other side does not want to fight and does not know how. Tweaking the mechanics is not going to address that underlying problem....no matter how much you tweak the mechanics.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#448 - 2016-07-15 18:45:29 UTC
Malcanis had a nice post on the problem with war decs and it is NOT mechanics.

Malcanis wrote:
It's not a proposal, it's a thought experiment designed to illustrate the problem with war decs in the first place. War deccers generally don't like the idea beause it allows industrial corps to spend ISK to protect themselves. The Defending corps generally don't like it because it allows them to protect themselves by spending ISK.

The experiment therefore illustrates the motivations behind both sides. in general, hi-sec war deccers are in it for low commitment, easy kill farming, with any profit being something of a bonus. So a system that requires them to commit ISK and which also allows the defender any agency in determining the terms of conflict is not popular with them.

Likewise, the defenders in general don't want non-consensual PvP at all, and they want CCP to just stop it (see the post directly after the one I made above, for example.) So to them, the war-bond is a regressive step that they see as one more way of putting the responsibility for defending their ships and assets on them, rather than on CONCORD.

In short, the issue with war-decs is that they are non-consensual PvP in a way that, for example, a war between two 0.0 alliances isn't. The 0.0 guys may complain about blobs or coalitions or cloaky camping or whatever, but that's just tactics. They're not complaining about the concept of another entity shooting at them at all. Wardecs on the other hand, typically involve a defender who doesn't want to engage in combat PvP at all. How can you reconcile that desire with the desire for other players to play a FFA PvP game? The War Bond addresses the fig-leaf justifications that both sides put up. Deccers constantly complain that defenders can just quite their corps and reform another, risking nothing and losing nothing but a name. Defenders complain that they have no way to use their playstyle to protect themselves, and that the wardeccers commit nothing and take no real risks.

And yet when offered a mechanism that addresses these complaints, neither of them like it. In true EVE style, each want the other to do all the adapting.
--italics in the original


If Malcanis is right the problem with wardecs is likely not mechanics. Looking at the mechanics is like looking under the street light for the car keys you lost in the dark portion of the parking lot.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#449 - 2016-07-16 02:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron
Just a few thoughts, Lets say CCP does change the mechanics which puts the war deccers in a position where they have to defend some sort of structure. Do you seriously believe this will make the guys who don't want to PVP take up arms?

I must say I am in strong agreement with the posts that suggest lots of pilots get together in cheap ships and give the wardeccers a good beating.

I put forward Dracvlad to organise this cos he has the biggest mouth Blink

For those of you that do not pvp lets say you have a frigate that does 150dps (Damage Per Second) its not much on its own I know. Now lets say you can round up 20 men in these 150dps frigs, in total that's 3000dps output for your fleet, all you need is a fleet commander so you can organise your fleet. You will get some good kills with a minimal outlay. Now, imagine you can get 40 men in your fleet, that's 6000dps, imagine 60 men, That's 9000dps!!

You must realise that it is actually the little guy that has the advantage here there is more of you, if only he could talk to other little guys and form a temporary alliance against the war deccers.

I know that many people will ignore this post and this is where a large part of the problem stems from, your attitudes. I have every faith that the little guy can solve this problem without changing any mechanic, I suggest taking advantage of other mechanics like blobbing your enemy with bigger odds and then it will be the war decccers on forums crying that they cant get a fair fight.

Come on little guys, please please, don't let these wardec fools win, you have the ability to outsmart them, Use it.

I'm almost tempted to come to hi-sec and try this.....

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#450 - 2016-07-16 03:57:32 UTC
Tried it a couple of times. Failed.

In one of these instances, the CEO (a three week old character I might add) of a corp I was assisting logged on late while I was laying "The Battleplan" down (via text chat no less for they had no comms- though I was trying to get them on ours), told me told me to stick it where the sun don't shine and follow his lead because he wanted to do it his way.

He didn't need comms because he couldn't be bothered to have his guys install Teamspeak -- text would be fine.

He subsequently got himself killed, instructed a friend who'd just dropped corp to engage and got the guy's Hurricane FI concordokkened.

I then turned my Firetail 180 degrees and ordered those in my corp and a few friends who'd deployed with us back to our homeland.

Aaron, have a +1 buddy. You speak truth. If you have the patience, by all means knock yourself out. I'm getting too old for that.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#451 - 2016-07-16 04:58:31 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Tried it a couple of times. Failed.

In one of these instances, the CEO (a three week old character I might add) of a corp I was assisting logged on late while I was laying "The Battleplan" down (via text chat no less for they had no comms- though I was trying to get them on ours), told me told me to stick it where the sun don't shine and follow his lead because he wanted to do it his way.

He didn't need comms because he couldn't be bothered to have his guys install Teamspeak -- text would be fine.

He subsequently got himself killed, instructed a friend who'd just dropped corp to engage and got the guy's Hurricane FI concordokkened.

I then turned my Firetail 180 degrees and ordered those in my corp and a few friends who'd deployed with us back to our homeland.

Aaron, have a +1 buddy. You speak truth. If you have the patience, by all means knock yourself out. I'm getting too old for that.


I've met many folks like the CEO you speak of, Teamspeak is mandatory in such ops. I think a good trick is to keep it cheap with frigates and see if roams can be organised a couple of times a week, doing it this way failing won't be so painful it might even be a good laugh. After the op is done you can all have a good chat on how you can do better on the next occasion.

Actually, this is something I am seriously considering, Can anyone tell me the specifics of wardecs? How easy is it for one corp to assist another in a legal war? What is the cost of offering/receiving assistance if any? Is there a limitation on the amount of corps that can assist in a war?


Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#452 - 2016-07-16 09:01:16 UTC
None whatsoever , that cost is shouldered by the aggressors .
straight forward to get involved , find a defender thats opend themselves for allies (little sword next to the war on their war history)
i do not believe there is any limits on how many corps can get involved on the defenders side

worth noting that an allies time to live is 4 hours not 24 but is dependent on the initial 24.
so if you join a war that is currently live you will be an active participant within 4 hours.

once the initial war drops so will yours,
if any of your corps leave the alliance while under dec they will inherit the war as
a separate new war for a week starting the day they leave so if thats going to happen tell people to either sort that before hand or hold off till after

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#453 - 2016-07-16 09:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
OK Aaron come to hisec, gather some players which is going to be pretty hard in itself then ally in a war with someone decked by Vendetta Mercenary Group and then see what happens. Put your ISK where your mouth is and do it, I hope you do it and succeed, but I don't even think you will try, you are just attention seeking like normal. All your following me around and stupid insults does not matter to me at all, and while I have a soft spot for you from 2010. I certainly don't care whether a person who keeps opening threads on Hub Zero thinks I am a big mouth. Roll


By the way what I am suggesting is not a change in war dec mechanics, both you and Teckos seem to be jointly ignorant on that.

Changes in war dec mechanics I support are reduced cost to 25m for a corp and 50m for an alliance, I have suggested that the idea of a person leaving a player corp and joining another player corp within 7 days will take the war dec with them, but not to an NPC corp. They are changes in mechanics.

The proposal for a OS to give some sort of Watch List capability per Constellation is not a war dec mechanic, it is a tool based on new content created by CCP, this tool should be shootable when it is operational, to deal with an issue raised by Shae. It puts more skin in the game for a War Deck entity which enables less skilled players to resist and affect their intel gathering and gets them into space doing stuff and a feeling that they can do something.

As for your suggestion yes you can jump in a fleet, go after the fast lockers around the hubs and pipes, you will have to try to catch hold of people who will warp and dock at any sign of danger, you can try to blast the hub campers before they can dock. Should you get a reaction you will find out that tons of frigates against a properly setup war deccer like VMG will pad their killboard, but you can at least have fun dying and if they screw up then you will get a kill.


You suggested that I go and organise something, my feeling is like many on this thread that the spirit of people in hisec is broken, beyond that the majority of people in hisec are the alts of 0.0 players doing indy and missions which is the issue and why I suggested what I did. You seem to like flogging dead horses with Hub Zero and making a lot of noise for no result, your latest thread has attracted no one which is a shame, but some of the reasons that have affected hisec have also affectedyour attempts to populate the logistical nightmare that is Stain.

But one thing is for certain, running after me on the forums, doing insults is not going to get me annoyed with you, I have no intention nor do I want to do anything against you, because you are totally irrelevant and I have zero interest in you. You proved to me that you are incompetent and Major Trant called it as I saw it in your thread And your feeble attempt to smear me by association was just so sad and a mark of what you are.

EDIT: It is possible, and a good example is this, but note who did it

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#454 - 2016-07-16 15:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron
Dracvlad wrote:
OK Aaron come to hisec, gather some players which is going to be pretty hard in itself then ally in a war with someone decked by Vendetta Mercenary Group and then see what happens. Put your ISK where your mouth is and do it, I hope you do it and succeed, but I don't even think you will try, you are just attention seeking like normal. All your following me around and stupid insults does not matter to me at all, and while I have a soft spot for you from 2010. I certainly don't care whether a person who keeps opening threads on Hub Zero thinks I am a big mouth. Roll


By the way what I am suggesting is not a change in war dec mechanics, both you and Teckos seem to be jointly ignorant on that.

Changes in war dec mechanics I support are reduced cost to 25m for a corp and 50m for an alliance, I have suggested that the idea of a person leaving a player corp and joining another player corp within 7 days will take the war dec with them, but not to an NPC corp. They are changes in mechanics.

The proposal for a OS to give some sort of Watch List capability per Constellation is not a war dec mechanic, it is a tool based on new content created by CCP, this tool should be shootable when it is operational, to deal with an issue raised by Shae. It puts more skin in the game for a War Deck entity which enables less skilled players to resist and affect their intel gathering and gets them into space doing stuff and a feeling that they can do something.

As for your suggestion yes you can jump in a fleet, go after the fast lockers around the hubs and pipes, you will have to try to catch hold of people who will warp and dock at any sign of danger, you can try to blast the hub campers before they can dock. Should you get a reaction you will find out that tons of frigates against a properly setup war deccer like VMG will pad their killboard, but you can at least have fun dying and if they screw up then you will get a kill.


You suggested that I go and organise something, my feeling is like many on this thread that the spirit of people in hisec is broken, beyond that the majority of people in hisec are the alts of 0.0 players doing indy and missions which is the issue and why I suggested what I did. You seem to like flogging dead horses with Hub Zero and making a lot of noise for no result, your latest thread has attracted no one which is a shame, but some of the reasons that have affected hisec have also affectedyour attempts to populate the logistical nightmare that is Stain.

But one thing is for certain, running after me on the forums, doing insults is not going to get me annoyed with you, I have no intention nor do I want to do anything against you, because you are totally irrelevant and I have zero interest in you. You proved to me that you are incompetent and Major Trant called it as I saw it in your thread And your feeble attempt to smear me by association was just so sad and a mark of what you are.

EDIT: It is possible, and a good example is this, but note who did it


Putting you forward was a joke Drac, Did you not see the wink after the sentence?

You're 100% wrong about me and this is the issue. Many people have said on this thread and many other threads in the past that you are hard to communicate with and I can agree with this 100%. It seems that you never want to do anything except moan and post on forums about problems within the game.

You simply don't understand that by nature some people like to do things about their problems. You speak of me seeking attention by suggesting this, the reality is I like to help raise people spirit and show them they are stronger than they think. I like to help the little guy who is unsure how to go about doing things. The reality is listening to folks like yourself and major trant won't amount to anything, people like you will pass judgement on me without carefully analysing the bigger picture.

What's is so wrong with people living in Stain and using cloakys through wormholes to bring stuff back and fourth? You are planning to go live in a WH yourself....

You didn't even notice that I was singing your praises in my first post on this thread, I said that you had the skills to organise this and make a difference, Is this an insult? No.

Neither yourself or Major Trant have any understanding of what I am trying to achieve in Stain, You blame me for problems that I cannot change.

The fact is you were once a noob and I took the time to help you which you benefited from. Have some appreciation for my deeds. When we first joined SAS and I did my first fleet command of a large fleet and everyone including yourself was very happy with my perfomance, You said "Aaron you made it clearer for people to see whats going on in a large fleet fight" One of the guys said that I was the man for the Job, but then all the haterism started which you quickly brought into and my chance to shine was quickly brought to an end. This is what guys like you and major promote, bad feelings.

You started the personal attacks, I just responded to you. You can dish it out well but you can't handle it when things are thrown back at you.

Drac, I am bored with your "lets not bother trying anything till game changes are made" attitude, seriously bored, I want some action. If what I propose can be done regular that is still a cool thing, we can show the war deccers that we wont accept their behavior even if they dock up every time, we can come back another time and stand our ground. Have you really taken the time to know me Drac?, I am a Rebel fighting against wrongs done against the little guy by "the system", thats the role I play within Eve.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#455 - 2016-07-16 16:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron
If something can come out of fighting war deccers and I have input in organising it, then yes my profile will be raised, I may even try to get a few guys to join me in Stain If I can make a difference in hi-sec. I think on a few different levels. Flogging dead horses I hear you say? It sounds like you've given up on Eve. I have not.

Even if what I do in Hi-sec completely fails, I will still be happy simply because we tried. For me it is not only about winning, it is just as much about being more social and getting involved and fighting well. There are loads of cool people in Eve that I would like to know and work with.

Go easy on me Drac, I have invested lots of time in you in the past please respect this, I have been very patient with you I had to deal with your 100 questions while fleet ops were going on, I took the time to help you gain a different perspective on the game and in my book that counts for lots. I would never be on any forum talking ill of people who helped me find a way out of noobville.

I am put out that you don't care to notice that I have changed Drac, I now have the ability to be involved in what I am proposing without getting annoyed or angry if things dont go to plan. Eve is still a great experience for me. I'll have a good look at organising something based on the mechanics that currently exist. If it does happen feel free to get involved Drac. And by the way I am not following you around what you feel is just your arrogance. I do not want to see Eve go under, I have invested almost £1,500 here over the years and I will do anything in my power to stop it if I feel that is the direction we are headed in.

I LOVE EVE ONLINE!!!!!!!!

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#456 - 2016-07-16 17:34:02 UTC
Aaron wrote:
If something can come out of fighting war deccers and I have input in organising it, then yes my profile will be raised, I may even try to get a few guys to join me in Stain If I can make a difference in hi-sec. I think on a few different levels. Flogging dead horses I hear you say? It sounds like you've given up on Eve. I have not.

Even if what I do in Hi-sec completely fails, I will still be happy simply because we tried. For me it is not only about winning, it is just as much about being more social and getting involved and fighting well. There are loads of cool people in Eve that I would like to know and work with.

Go easy on me Drac, I have invested lots of time in you in the past please respect this, I have been very patient with you I had to deal with your 100 questions while fleet ops were going on, I took the time to help you gain a different perspective on the game and in my book that counts for lots. I would never be on any forum talking ill of people who helped me find a way out of noobville.

I am put out that you don't care to notice that I have changed Drac, I now have the ability to be involved in what I am proposing without getting annoyed or angry if things dont go to plan. Eve is still a great experience for me. I'll have a good look at organising something based on the mechanics that currently exist. If it does happen feel free to get involved Drac. And by the way I am not following you around what you feel is just your arrogance. I do not want to see Eve go under, I have invested almost £1,500 here over the years and I will do anything in my power to stop it if I feel that is the direction we are headed in.

I LOVE EVE ONLINE!!!!!!!!


Aaron,

I can in all honesty say good luck and I hope you do it, despite all the water under the bridge I still wish you well. Hugs and kisses and all that, sorry it was the carebear in me that got free for the moment Big smileBlink

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#457 - 2016-07-16 18:05:08 UTC
Dudes have history.

Even the tl;dr is tl;dr but I wish the both of ya well. Now scoot!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#458 - 2016-07-16 19:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Dudes have history.

Even the tl;dr is tl;dr but I wish the both of ya well. Now scoot!


Well I am still pushing the OS idea for the watch list, just because people are trolling with rubbish like e-bushido or dragging in past conflicts to clutter up the thread will not stop me from pushing this idea. The whole concept is to get people in space to believe that they can resist and impact those that have war decked them, content will flow from that. It is a no brainier for those with a brain, you have a brain, I think you see the value.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#459 - 2016-07-18 00:56:53 UTC
good info in this thread - I know some time ago alt logi went through the microscope and what came out the other end wasn't much to write home about.

Surely if ccp make the stance that if you commit you should commit for the entirety of the fight even if the information available to player points towards a gf which then changes with the dull and predictable gameplay, alt logi should have the same consequence?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#460 - 2016-07-18 04:13:08 UTC
Point the logi.