Player Features and Ideas Discussion

How, when that lone rifter uses this trick to get into deep sov space... where we then use this trick to escape him?

Yes, it was an extremely traumatic experience and I'd prefer it if you never speak of it again

I did see that and commented on it >_< no need to spam the entire page with it.

It's not the same one Valei, and I wasn't referring to your comment or lack of; I was more interested that not one person arguing against introduction of new modules said it was a ****-fit, or that it would get raped by the willing quite quickly. It doesn't benefit them to do so, even though they are thinking it; so they don't, in order to keep the credibility of their arguments.

That's why I posted it in the first place.

Tbh we just ignored your post, personally I rarely take a real look at fits people post unless they are actively brought into the discussion. REAL null sec ninja ratting/plexing fits:

[Ishtar, pve]
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
N-Type Kinetic Hardener I
Medium Armor Repairer II
Co-Processor II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
10MN Afterburner II
Codebreaker I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Prototype Cloaking Device I

Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5


Or a less skill intensive cane:

[Hurricane, Hurricane: Gabe's Nanocane!]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

EC-300

These fits are fast, they will get you around, and you can plex in them. The cane can probably even be improved with a T1 cloak for the mwd trick, or an extra nano.

The thing is that bubbles, and tackle in general, is not a ganking tool. All they do is stop you from warping away immediately. That's all. Nothing more. Warping is certainly a powerful way to avoid being killed. The thing is that since you can warp ad infinitum, and you are invincible while you are warping, assuming you can always warp out there is only a few seconds window at a time during which any fighting can happen. And that means that no-one ever dies.

Right from the off set, eve always has had disruptors and scramblers to stop this happening. The devs saw that if you were going to let people fight, they needed some fort of mechanism to stop them just warping off. They also put in a hard-counter to them in the form of warp core stabilizers. 1 WCS = 1 disruptor that doesn't effect you. And you can use as many as you want. You could easily make a ship (assuming it had enough low slots) impossible for any single ship to prevent warping.

In fact not too far in the past there was a nerf of warp core stabs for simply being too powerful. Far from being used by people who didn't want to fight it was used by people who DID want to fight, but didn't want to die. This took advantage of the fact that even when they had no effect on combat ability, WCS still took up slots and thus gimped good ratting and other solo pvp ships.

WCS were the gankers tool. They were not often used by ratters, even when they knew that it would near certainly keep them alive, and borderline invincible. The ratters used local, and scouts, and intel channels to tell them when danger was near. With a single WCS, they probably would have needed any of them (scrams didn't have their current effect, merely 2 points at very short range and were almost unheard of). But they seldom used them.

They put their faith in the great all purpose approach to not dying - ie not being where the bad guys were. They never wanted to be on the field with someone pointing them, and a lot of people, including me never got popped.

The gankers on the other hand who were constantly putting themselves in harms way, going into places where they were going to have points thrown at them. It was their natural environment. And so they protected themselves from dying, not by tanking or jamming or any other way. They protected themselves by always being able to warp away. It meant that they were in a guaranteed no-loss situation. Every fight, they knew they at best would break even.

This was why WCS were nerfed to make them near impossible to use on combat fit ships. Gankers had taken a tool to protect unwary travelers and turned it into a free pass to attack everything everywhere with no risk. I once was in a 5 man gang that had a WCS raven jump into us. We put 5 points on him, and he just warped away after taking a moment to slap a thorax with torps.

And that is exactly what would happen with your module. If anything, they are even more dangerous than WCS, because you only need to give up one slot, and the number of combat ships with utility highs is very large. It makes every ship able to be a full combat platform, with max tank, max dps, and at the cost of a neut never have to worry about being killed.

That is the problem here. Almost every ship would be able to be incredibly aggressive at little to no risk to themselves. And that goes against the way that eve is. You CAN be aggressive now, but when you commit to attacking someone you take the risk of being killed.

Even assuming that we reframe the concept of your module into being something that reduces your number of targets to 0, scan res to zero and prevents you activating smartbombs, thus solving the problem of people taking it and using it aggressively, there are still problems.

Yes, it does protect people from being ganked on the field, once a point hits them.

There is a noble intention there.

But eve is not a noble universe. And particularly in 0.0, every ship has to be looked as as being a potential huge threat. There is no way to know what ships are newbies trekking out to see what there is to see, and which are potentially bearing cyno fields, and by extension bringing with him everyone in alliance and their alts with their capitals and supercapitals to your door step.

And I can guarantee that this would be the primary purpose your module would be put to. Because veterans are... well... bastards. They will use every tool available to them to get the upper hand. There is no honor in space, there is just winning and losing.

To return this back to where we started...

How did most people chose to protect themselves from being attacked, even when there was a cheap and powerful counter to tackling ? They chose the most reliable approach, namely being someplace else than where the people who wanted to kill them were. They used intelligence channels and local and scouts to warn them of impending attack. And they warped out before anyone could point them.

And that is the crux of the matter. The key to not being ganked is not in having the means to escape once combat has started, its to not be involved in combat at all, being many AU from the nasty people. There certainly already are ways to escape even large numbers of people trying to hold you down and kill you, but that's irrelevant here.

Learn to play better and not die. When you solo, and when you fight, you either choose to Commit, or you don't, but when you commit you go all the way and don't try to run like a little girl. Ive killed dramiels in my taranis quite a few times with 20% structure left, if i decided to run when i was hitting structure because a gang jumped in i would die and not get a kill.

The idea is learning when to fight and when not to, and to use falcon alts/scout alts.

Welcome to eve.

Personally this is where I see the problem. You can always warp off. It should be harder to warp off.



And they found a sledgehammer fix. Unlike all the other combat interactions, its a binary on off button in most situations. In a typical many vs few scenario the outcome is so predetermined its laughable.



WCS works against any single ship. But single ships are not the inhibitor, blobs are. WCS isn't a problem because of overpowered/underpowered, its just a crap mechanic.



I agree, his module is OP. However that doesn't mean the problem he's trying to fix isn't a problem.....



Something that I think everyone would agree with. But surely this is easy to correct, you just stop it working for 10 minutes if you shoot at something.

But as you say its a noble objective.... So why so keen to preserve the status quo. The game would be better if all play styles were possible in 0.0 - including solo (without the scout, most arguments break down).

Personally I'd get rid of the 'points' and have an additional resource - say a warp battery separate from cap, with its own set of boosters, re-chargers, and neut type modules creating a range of options for offence and defence each with their own fitting implications. The problem with points is they are so fecking binary in their effect.

alternatively if you are going to have a I_LIVE module it should come with a hefty penalty (say 5m ISK for a cruiser charge + 75% damage to all layers), a large reload time (5 minutes), and also prevent you from leaving the system or docking for 30 minutes (including logoffsky), thus forcing a game of hide and seek in which the runner really has to work hard to survive.

Perhaps it is you that should be playing one of those singleplayer games against stupid NPCs or doing PVE missions, as this would allow you to avoid those terribly mean schoolyard bullies. Well, at least the gatecamping variety. I'm not a gate camper, and haven't ever been particularly fond of them myself, preferring a slightly more personal touch to my fights, but I'm sorry, if you're having a problem where you think proposing an idea like this is even necessary then you're not doing something right and should avoid situations where all the schoolyard bullies will come beat you up at the same time.

No sympathy for OP, no support for OP's proposal.

How about this:

A module that supercharges microwarp drives, in exchange for being unable to engage full warp drive. 5 minute cycle time, reset by gating.

This would leave the only escape as going back through the gate they came in by.

Activating warp would also put the module on cooldown, so it would be unusable for 5 minutes after warping.
(This would keep it from helping bypass gate camps from the side of the gate the camp is on)
Again, it is reset by gating, making it available almost exclusively to retreat back from a gate camp, never for getting past one.