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Instantly Switching Ships? How?

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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#61 - 2016-07-06 19:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaac Armer
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I didn't give an opinion, I gave a fact. It's a demonstrable fact. Very easy to test. Prove me wrong. If it's so easy and risk free, it shouldn't be much trouble to show me a few examples, should it?

Edit: It's not my 'l33t playstyle'. I don't gank. I have done in the past, but not anymore. Stop making assumptions. You admitted yourself, you're biased, so get unbiased and look at it from a neutral point of view. Whether you love or hate what they do, or love or hate the people behind it, you cannot deny that gankers don't take any risks. That would be ignorant, very ignorant.


The fact is ganking is a ship scan and a math equation. You literally never have to engage if you don't know for sure you will win, and you know virtually 100% of the time no one will fight back.

That's easy. That's the fact. The unknowns, compared to other parts of space are extremely small. Gankers don't take risk. Claiming that is simply stupid. They know 100% what they are bringing, what the EHP is of the target, and how much ISK they have to spend on ships to do it. That's not risk. Name one other form of PvP in the game that give you that kind of certainty about successfully winning before you engage. Name just one.

There's nothing wrong with ganking. It's a great playstyle. There's nothing wrong with wanting risk-free ways to shoot ships in HS. It's part of the game, but don't be absurd and pretend its not what it is.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-07-06 19:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Isaac Armer wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I didn't give an opinion, I gave a fact. It's a demonstrable fact. Very easy to test. Prove me wrong. If it's so easy and risk free, it shouldn't be much trouble to show me a few examples, should it?

Edit: It's not my 'l33t playstyle'. I don't gank. I have done in the past, but not anymore. Stop making assumptions. You admitted yourself, you're biased, so get unbiased and look at it from a neutral point of view. Whether you love or hate what they do, or love or hate the people behind it, you cannot deny that gankers don't take any risks. That would be ignorant, very ignorant.


The fact is ganking is a simple ship scan and a math equation. You literally never have to engage if you don't know for sure you will win, and you know virtually 100% of the time no one will fight back.

That's easy. That's the fact. The unknowns, compared to other parts of space are extremely small. Gankers don't take risk. Claiming that is simply stupid. They know 100% what they are bringing, what the EHP is of the target, and how much ISK they have to spend on ships to do it. That's not risk. Name one other form of PvP in the game that give you that kind of certainty about successfully winning before you engage. Name just one.

There's nothing wrong with ganking. It's a great playstyle. There's nothing wrong with wanting risk-free ways to shoot ships in HS. It's part of the game, but don't be absurd and pretend its not what it is.


No, sorry, it's not that simple. There are a myriad of variables that you can't account for. Disconnections, cloaked escorts, traps of all varieties, etc. Just assuming that they won't fight back doesn't mean they won't. If you want to do maths, you have to consider variables, and you just can't take all variables into account 100% of the time. Again, until you've done it yourself, and shown us how risk averse and easy it is, you have no reasonable case save for that which comes from your own assumption and bias. Hell, one gank I was on with a friend, we were supposed to gank a Hulk which was in a belt with another Hulk and an Orca. Two cats was all it should have taken. My friend targeted and shot the orca instead of our target hulk, and we both failed miserably. Pilot error is another variable that you just can't account for, and people DO screw up.

Now of course, there will be the risk averse ganker. There are risk averse players everywhere - high, low, nul, wh, wardeccers, miners, etc. But to throw an entire demographic into the basket of 'risk averse' comes across as little more than salty bias, especially when you've never done the activity yourself to demonstrate a more thorough understanding of it.

I've got nothing more to say on the topic. I've told you everything you need to know to understand, or to garner an understanding of it for yourself by trying it for yourself. If you continue to ignore the facts, then that is entirely your own problem.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#63 - 2016-07-06 21:38:11 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
No, sorry, it's not that simple. There are a myriad of variables that you can't account for. Disconnections, cloaked escorts, traps of all varieties, etc. Just assuming that they won't fight back doesn't mean they won't. If you want to do maths, you have to consider variables, and you just can't take all variables into account 100% of the time. Again, until you've done it yourself, and shown us how risk averse and easy it is, you have no reasonable case save for that which comes from your own assumption and bias. Hell, one gank I was on with a friend, we were supposed to gank a Hulk which was in a belt with another Hulk and an Orca. Two cats was all it should have taken. My friend targeted and shot the orca instead of our target hulk, and we both failed miserably. Pilot error is another variable that you just can't account for, and people DO screw up.

Now of course, there will be the risk averse ganker. There are risk averse players everywhere - high, low, nul, wh, wardeccers, miners, etc. But to throw an entire demographic into the basket of 'risk averse' comes across as little more than salty bias, especially when you've never done the activity yourself to demonstrate a more thorough understanding of it.

I've got nothing more to say on the topic. I've told you everything you need to know to understand, or to garner an understanding of it for yourself by trying it for yourself. If you continue to ignore the facts, then that is entirely your own problem.


And yet again, compared to any other PvP in EVE, it's risk free.

Oh no, you lost a few cats to a missed gank! What a loss, do you need a loan to get by? Are you honestly saying ganking is risky because your friend accidentally targeted the wrong ship? That's not risk, that's stupidity on the part of your mate. Come on man.

I already said ganking is a good part of the game. It's needed, it's healthy. It's simply something for the risk averse and those who look for easy kills for little effort. That's not a bad thing, it's just how it is.

Steps to gank: alt scouts to get a warp in, check the ship's fitting, grab your cats/talos/nados, warp in and shoot. Super risky right there!

I'll ask one more time, name one other form of PvP in the game that give you that kind of certainty about successfully winning before you engage that you get with ganking?

And again, there's nothing wrong with ganking. It's just what people do when they want easy kills without a fight. That's not a bad thing, it's extremely healthy for the economy, but unlike you I do understand what it is.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#64 - 2016-07-06 21:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
The final risk of failure in a well organised gank being low doesn't mean there is no risk, it just means the risks are well controlled. They still exist, but the well organised gankers understand the risks and have good approaches in place to minimise them.

More power to them.

But if you are looking for other examples, well organised gate camps in low and null, the killing of shuttles, capsules, industrials and mining barges that occurs every day in low and null. None of that is particularly risky in the end, because just like a well organised gank in highsec, guys who know what they are doing in low and null use their experience and knowledge to control their engagements.

The risks all still exist though. It's just pvp. None of it is holier than any other.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#65 - 2016-07-07 01:25:15 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
The final risk of failure in a well organised gank being low doesn't mean there is no risk, it just means the risks are well controlled. They still exist, but the well organised gankers understand the risks and have good approaches in place to minimise them.

More power to them.

But if you are looking for other examples, well organised gate camps in low and null, the killing of shuttles, capsules, industrials and mining barges that occurs every day in low and null. None of that is particularly risky in the end, because just like a well organised gank in highsec, guys who know what they are doing in low and null use their experience and knowledge to control their engagements.

The risks all still exist though. It's just pvp. None of it is holier than any other.


That's my point. That's why I said risk free compared to other forms of PvP

Curious, what gatecamping have you seen in low or null where you can scan the ship, figure out the EHP and bring the needed DPS without risk of being attacked in the process?

Obviously there is a small amount of risk in ganking, but calling losing a catalyst risky when (if no one screws up) you are all but guaranteed a kill isn't being honest.

Again. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ganking. It's a part of the game, and it absolutely should not go away. The point is simply it's one of the more risk averse playstyles in the game today. Again. Nothing wrong with that at all. Everyone should play how they enjoy. If people enjoy *virtually* risk free ganking, carebear it up. Far be it from me to tell anyone else how to play a sandbox game.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2016-07-07 03:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Isaac Armer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
The final risk of failure in a well organised gank being low doesn't mean there is no risk, it just means the risks are well controlled. They still exist, but the well organised gankers understand the risks and have good approaches in place to minimise them.

More power to them.

But if you are looking for other examples, well organised gate camps in low and null, the killing of shuttles, capsules, industrials and mining barges that occurs every day in low and null. None of that is particularly risky in the end, because just like a well organised gank in highsec, guys who know what they are doing in low and null use their experience and knowledge to control their engagements.

The risks all still exist though. It's just pvp. None of it is holier than any other.


That's my point. That's why I said risk free compared to other forms of PvP

Curious, what gatecamping have you seen in low or null where you can scan the ship, figure out the EHP and bring the needed DPS without risk of being attacked in the process?

Obviously there is a small amount of risk in ganking, but calling losing a catalyst risky when (if no one screws up) you are all but guaranteed a kill isn't being honest.

Again. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ganking. It's a part of the game, and it absolutely should not go away. The point is simply it's one of the more risk averse playstyles in the game today. Again. Nothing wrong with that at all. Everyone should play how they enjoy. If people enjoy *virtually* risk free ganking, carebear it up. Far be it from me to tell anyone else how to play a sandbox game.


It's not risk aversion that drives people to gank though. Risk mitigation =/= risk aversion, it's just smart, and I don't know a single ganker that doesn't have a good array of regular kills on their KB. I know your agenda to belittle the average ganker is on the line here, but your narrative ain't flying with anyone that's spent more than a few minutes firing weapons at other players.

There's no 'compared to', it's not risk free, not even close. But if you want to go down the 'compared to' route, compared to pushing F1 and alt-tabbing to watch Netflix like a lot of miners do, and compared to anything you've ever done, it's downright dangerous. For the last time, unless you've done it yourself, don't you dare sit there and try to pretend like some of the best content creators in the game, who have done more for the game than your whining about them will ever do, are anywhere near even approaching an accurate 'carebear' descriptor.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#67 - 2016-07-07 04:17:09 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Ganking is far from lazy. It can take a lot of effort, and a lot of coordination....
Then, that's not ganking. Ganking is effortlessly one-shotting lesser or defenseless players just for yucks or no appreciable gain other than to be mean and snotty and snide and all those other Beavis and Butthead characteristics which lend themselves so well in polite company.
heee heee heee heee *snivel snivel snivel droooool*

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#68 - 2016-07-07 13:35:46 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It's not risk aversion that drives people to gank though. Risk mitigation =/= risk aversion, it's just smart, and I don't know a single ganker that doesn't have a good array of regular kills on their KB. I know your agenda to belittle the average ganker is on the line here, but your narrative ain't flying with anyone that's spent more than a few minutes firing weapons at other players.

There's no 'compared to', it's not risk free, not even close. But if you want to go down the 'compared to' route, compared to pushing F1 and alt-tabbing to watch Netflix like a lot of miners do, and compared to anything you've ever done, it's downright dangerous. For the last time, unless you've done it yourself, don't you dare sit there and try to pretend like some of the best content creators in the game, who have done more for the game than your whining about them will ever do, are anywhere near even approaching an accurate 'carebear' descriptor.


Funny how you know my 'agenda' here. Ganking is a great part of the game. I'm not belittling it. I'm pointing out what it is.

Compared to AFK mining no **** it's more dangerous. Compared to literally any other form of PvP, gankers are cuddly carebears. I mostly do PvE myself. Nothing wrong with not wanting to take risks in the game. I try not to, just like gankers try not to. Ganking (especially ganking anyone AFK) is so safe it's nearly another form of PvE. For the 12th time, there is nothing wrong with that. If people don't want to take risks to build up killboards, more power to them.

Why do you think I've never ganked anyone? Funny how you know so much more about me than I do.

Why did I hit such a nerve with you here?
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#69 - 2016-07-07 15:19:11 UTC
Isaac Armer wrote:


And yet again, compared to any other PvP in EVE, it's risk free.

Oh no, you lost a few cats to a missed gank! What a loss, do you need a loan to get by? Are you honestly saying ganking is risky because your friend accidentally targeted the wrong ship? That's not risk, that's stupidity on the part of your mate. Come on man.


is ganking an isk generating activity?

even if you're losing cheap catas, if you don't generate isk, how can you say it's risk averse?

Just Add Water
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#70 - 2016-07-07 15:26:54 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
is ganking an isk generating activity?

even if you're losing cheap catas, if you don't generate isk, how can you say it's risk averse?


Gankers by and large hold killboard statuses as more important metrics than isk earned through the kill. Ganking all but guarantees green killboards with no risk of big losses. that's risk averse.

And for the 19th time, since no one seems to get it, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be risk averse when killing people in EVE.
Nalia White
Tencus
#71 - 2016-07-07 15:54:27 UTC
dumb mechanic if you ask me. i think ccp already changed the mechanic with scoopig flashy targets am i right here?

i'd say this falls in the same category. ship a is in space and can be immediatly ship b in the same space is just a really really really dumb mechanic if you ask me but alas, it never will touch my style of play so meh.

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement
Paranoid Loyd
#72 - 2016-07-07 16:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Nalia White wrote:
scoopig
Is that short for Scooterpig?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#73 - 2016-07-07 16:42:00 UTC
Isaac Armer wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
is ganking an isk generating activity?

even if you're losing cheap catas, if you don't generate isk, how can you say it's risk averse?


Gankers by and large hold killboard statuses as more important metrics than isk earned through the kill. Ganking all but guarantees green killboards with no risk of big losses. that's risk averse.

And for the 19th time, since no one seems to get it, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be risk averse when killing people in EVE.


if that is the case then why do you make the cheap catas as one of your points? What?


anyway, most hisec ganker's KBs are red cause they always die to CONCORD, so your statement is again wrong....

Just Add Water
Nalia White
Tencus
#74 - 2016-07-07 17:05:32 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Nalia White wrote:
scoopig
Is that short for Scooterpig?


a minor mistake. made me giggle though and i won't edit it out :P

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

My biggest achievement
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#75 - 2016-07-07 17:12:11 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
if that is the case then why do you make the cheap catas as one of your points? What?

anyway, most hisec ganker's KBs are red cause they always die to CONCORD, so your statement is again wrong....


Because cheaper ships let you spend less time on your NS main earning ISK to pay for ganking.

And what are you talking about? Most gankers KBs are well over 95% green on isk ratios
Malakye Appleton
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2016-07-07 17:30:56 UTC
Everyone in EVE is risk averse. Most people in EVE PVP in gangs or fleets of some kind. I lost a Stratios to a group of like 22 pilots camping a gate. All I ever see are groups of people engaging a solo ship. Even the big feared Merc corps typically only blop people. Lets face it, strength in numbers.

I have been doing a lot of station camping lately and was taught everything I currently know about it from what I consider one of the best. Now, I'm looking at going back to what I used to do and that is study corps, their activities, ships flown, time on/off line and then dec them. As a one man operation right now, I have to be choosey and selective of my targets which I consider risk averse. I dont want to lose ships. Nothing wrong with that.

I guess my point is, there is a difference to me in not wanting to lose ships and engaging in various mechanical exploits to take advantage of other players. Is it legal? Sure, which makes it ok for some. Should some of it be changed? Absolutely and until they are, I'm sure there will be people trying to capitalize on them as much as possible.

Eve is certainly a game of lessons. Some learned harder than others. It sucks to lose a blingy ship in such ridiculous ways, but, its just how it is. I learned a billion isk lesson in this situation and I'm sure I'll learn many more in the future. I still have a lot to learn about all of the varieties of PVP there is in EVE and I'l continue experimenting with things until I've found my personal sweet spot.

Living the dream, one tear at a time...
Paranoid Loyd
#77 - 2016-07-07 17:41:53 UTC
Malakye Appleton wrote:
I have been doing a lot of station camping lately and was taught everything I currently know about it from what I consider one of the best.
He's talking about Holey guys, everyone point and laugh. Lol

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Malakye Appleton
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2016-07-07 17:49:31 UTC
You know what, I know a lot of people dont like HoleySheets, but in a time when I was looking to learn something new, join a merc corp and was turned down by everyone or everyone wanted something, he was the only person who actually taught me something new. He taught me about ship fits, modules, tactics, what to look for etc. He was immensely helpful to me and never asked for anything. He sent emails full of helpful information and honestly did everything he could to teach me the ropes of his craft. He could have easily blown me off like everyone else.

Say what you want about him, but in a world where everyone listens to the same WIIFM radio station, I commend him for his support and help.

Living the dream, one tear at a time...
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#79 - 2016-07-07 18:07:00 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
Orca

Bingo. A friendly Orca or Bowhead can carry other ships (including a Vindicator) and the pilot can have the Orca's or Bowhead's Ship Maintenance Bay open and ready to swap ships with a double-click.

Edit: Had to be a Bowhead, a Vindicator doesn't fit in an Orca.


which is completely ridiculous right...

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#80 - 2016-07-07 18:21:56 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Malakye Appleton wrote:
I have been doing a lot of station camping lately and was taught everything I currently know about it from what I consider one of the best.
He's talking about Holey guys, everyone point and laugh. Lol

To be fair, everyone i know who has flown with holy has nothing but good things to say about him.
They pretty much all agree hes mad chilled out easy going,
which i think makes the shunned gin soaked housewife forum personality all the funnier.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=