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Response to "Bulk Fitting" vs "Bulk doing stuff in the Economy"
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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#1 - 2016-06-25 06:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
Dear all,

EVE update shows us EVE will get bulk fitting with the following description;

Quote:
As Corporations, Alliances and Coalitions grow in size, more tools are needed to ensure that infrastructure scales to meet the growing demand for fitted ships, logistics, and supply during combat.

Bulk fitting allows pilots to fit multiple ships at the same time, in order to save time and ensure that everyone from a small gang to a fleet of epic proportions can be reshipped and back in the action as soon as possible.

So, very nice for people in the PVP arenas of physical combat.
But the tools supporting the EVE economy used by Enablers do not grow.

Quote:
As players the limit to trade is still limited to just 305 orders.
As players the limit for public contracts is still just 21.
As players the limit for corp contract is just 500.

*

See the trend here? When they announced bigger corp / alliances due to their existing skills, I also tried to get this point across, I hope someone will pick up on it now.

*

From Rubicon 1.3 statement by CCP Fozzie;

Quote:

.. we are doubling the effect of all four of the Corporation Management skills that affect corp membership limits.
..
This places the new cap at 12600 members, which should last the Brave Newbies at least another week or two.

*

My suggestion to get Enablers better trade skills for market and logistics too;

Quote:

  • 4 to 8 (Trade)
  • 8 to 16 (Retail)
  • 16 to 32 (Wholesale)
  • 32 to 64 (tycoon)

  • Corporate contracts 500 to 1000.
  • Public contracts from 21 to 42.

  • Lets also mention the now locked contract thread, that is full with stuff related to shipping stuff from A to B and working the markets for stuff that is not listed on the market tree.

*

Then, in the Citadel expansion, traders are faced with a higher tax in NPC stations, to promote citadel markets. I can follow that reasoning. But when you choose to market the masses in an NPC station, and you are a station trader, you have to eat the taxes each time you want to resupply / replenish an order due to the following facts;

  • You work up standings with a char for a faction / race
  • That char has 305 orders
  • Mass working a multitude of products, say 6 slots a product in Jita, as example, leaves you with just 50 products.

    • If you want to work bulk long time markets, with high turnover volumes, where you want to secure hedges or make bets. You have to work with a certain stock in market and work within the limited room given in a char, or you have to start multiple alts. But still, when relisting product, you have to pay taxes over and over. Please give us the means to decently replenish our orders.

    Suggested skill;

    Quote:
    Replenishment; Add stock to an existing market order.

    • LVL I; range upto Station
    • LVL II; range upto System
    • LVL III; range upto 20 jumps
    • LVL IV; range upto 40 jumps
    • LVL V; range upto region

    When you update an order, you should however pay taxes over the added amount of product. Also, since you edit the order, the timer should renew to the original timer of the order, it being 1 day, or 3 months.

    *

    With the arguments of CCP with growing empires, would it be unreasonable to give some love to the Enablers that work within the EVE economy, to give them the tools that support this bigger game CCP keeps talking about, just like CCP does for the people supplying the physical means in game?

    Thx for reading.

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    Vilhelm Shaddar
    Aloren Foundations
    #2 - 2016-06-26 09:06:40 UTC
    TheSmokingHertog wrote:

    Quote:
    Replenishment; Add stock to an existing market order.

    • LVL I; range upto Station
    • LVL II; range upto System
    • LVL III; range upto 20 jumps
    • LVL IV; range upto 40 jumps
    • LVL V; range upto region


    Are there seriously any points in a region that are over fourty jumps from another? And even if there are, are there enough to warrant training a skill to 5?
    Tiberius StarGazer
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #3 - 2016-06-26 11:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius StarGazer
    Vilhelm Shaddar wrote:

    Are there seriously any points in a region that are over fourty jumps from another? And even if there are, are there enough to warrant training a skill to 5?


    No there is not AFAIK. But I do recall someone working out that the largest number of jumps from point a to point b anywhere in the eve universe is 60. (I tried to find the post where this was worked out, but my googlefoo failed me)

    The range modifiers on market orders are fine IMO.

    And Market orders are ok(ish) but a bump in them would also not go unwelcome.

    Contracts however definitely need looking int - but I am praying that the contract system is due for an overhaul as well. So we shall see.
    TheSmokingHertog
    Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
    #4 - 2016-06-26 13:58:44 UTC
    Vilhelm Shaddar wrote:
    TheSmokingHertog wrote:

    Quote:
    Replenishment; Add stock to an existing market order.

    • LVL I; range upto Station
    • LVL II; range upto System
    • LVL III; range upto 20 jumps
    • LVL IV; range upto 40 jumps
    • LVL V; range upto region


    Are there seriously any points in a region that are over fourty jumps from another? And even if there are, are there enough to warrant training a skill to 5?


    Its the same distance as the other trade skills, I dont care about the distance. As long as the skill itself will be available ;).

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    TheSmokingHertog
    Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
    #5 - 2016-06-26 14:05:26 UTC
    Crosspost on RedditSmile

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    Market Launderer
    Stratton Oakmont Inc
    #6 - 2016-06-26 17:12:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Market Launderer
    TheSmokingHertog wrote:

    My suggestion to get Enablers better trade skills for market and logistics too;

    Quote:

    • 4 to 8 (Trade)
    • 8 to 16 (Retail)
    • 16 to 32 (Wholesale)
    • 32 to 64 (tycoon)

    • Corporate contracts 500 to 1000.
    • Public contracts from 21 to 42.

    • Lets also mention the now locked contract thread, that is full with stuff related to shipping stuff from A to B and working the markets for stuff that is not listed on the market tree.




    I honestly don't think this is necessary, and it devalues the effort required to maintain a proper trading operation. 300 orders is A LOT of orders, in fact, the Tycoon skill is the most "best bang for your buck" skill in the game, because each market order has essentially no limit on your ISK/hour (but of course market competition helps keep it down a bit).

    If everyone had double the orders, the only real result you would see that it takes double effort to make the same ISK (under the assumption that everyone makes full use of their orders, which they do not). Furthermore, having too many orders discourages interactions with orders despite tax hikes -- why buy an item for 20.2 million when it costs you 20 million to buy it and you wait a little longer? A smart trader will tell you to use the 200k pricier order because time is money, but idiots with high trading skills are living proof that people don't do that (or maybe there are a bunch of braindead botters in jita, wouldn't surprise me with how fierce the competition is sometimes).

    TheSmokingHertog wrote:


    Then, in the Citadel expansion, traders are faced with a higher tax in NPC stations, to promote citadel markets. I can follow that reasoning. But when you choose to market the masses in an NPC station, and you are a station trader, you have to eat the taxes each time you want to resupply / replenish an order due to the following facts;

  • You work up standings with a char for a faction / race
  • That char has 305 orders
  • Mass working a multitude of products, say 6 slots a product in Jita, as example, leaves you with just 50 products.

    • If you want to work bulk long time markets, with high turnover volumes, where you want to secure hedges or make bets. You have to work with a certain stock in market and work within the limited room given in a char, or you have to start multiple alts. But still, when relisting product, you have to pay taxes over and over. Please give us the means to decently replenish our orders.
    ...


    Wait, what? Why don't you just pay the 100ISK broker fee for adjusting the price by a cent? This completely resets the timer. There is a distinct tradeoff between larger orders and smaller orders due to this exactly. If you're not making money then your strategy is bad. To make best use of your order slots, you should do something like this:

    Assume some item has a median buy of 1.7 mil and a median sell of 2.2 mil:


    • List 100 units at 2.3 mil for 90 days
    • When there are only a few units left, lower the price to 2.2 (or lower depending on volume), this resets the timer again but you don't care about that, since the order is going to get filled soon
    • List 100 units at 2.3 mil for 90 days from your stockpiles (which you probably replenished somehow)


    Taxes are there for a reason, if you want a tax break go sit in the right citadels or make backdoor deals. As a hardcore trader I can tell you that these changes that have happened are all really good (except for no contracts in citadels, which pretty much cancels out all the good stuff I've been saying about citadels because I can't pay others to do stuff for me in citadels).

    TheSmokingHertog wrote:


    With the arguments of CCP with growing empires, would it be unreasonable to give some love to the Enablers that work within the EVE economy, to give them the tools that support this bigger game CCP keeps talking about, just like CCP does for the people supplying the physical means in game?


    Now this... this is just plain old entitlement. You want to be rewarded for enabling trade? You think CCP should do it because it's their game? You're playing the wrong MMO my friend. You want to be rewarded for enabling trade? You find a forking decent trade route or come up with a great strategy or supply goods to a group that didn't know it needed them. It's up to YOU in the sandbox, not the devs, to make things go smoothly (or not).
    TheSmokingHertog
    Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
    #7 - 2016-06-26 20:57:20 UTC
    Market Launderer wrote:
    TheSmokingHertog wrote:

    My suggestion to get Enablers better trade skills for market and logistics too;

    Quote:

    • 4 to 8 (Trade)
    • 8 to 16 (Retail)
    • 16 to 32 (Wholesale)
    • 32 to 64 (tycoon)

    • Corporate contracts 500 to 1000.
    • Public contracts from 21 to 42.

    • Lets also mention the now locked contract thread, that is full with stuff related to shipping stuff from A to B and working the markets for stuff that is not listed on the market tree.




    I honestly don't think this is necessary, and it devalues the effort required to maintain a proper trading operation. 300 orders is A LOT of orders, in fact, the Tycoon skill is the most "best bang for your buck" skill in the game, because each market order has essentially no limit on your ISK/hour (but of course market competition helps keep it down a bit).

    If everyone had double the orders, the only real result you would see that it takes double effort to make the same ISK (under the assumption that everyone makes full use of their orders, which they do not). Furthermore, having too many orders discourages interactions with orders despite tax hikes -- why buy an item for 20.2 million when it costs you 20 million to buy it and you wait a little longer? A smart trader will tell you to use the 200k pricier order because time is money, but idiots with high trading skills are living proof that people don't do that (or maybe there are a bunch of braindead botters in jita, wouldn't surprise me with how fierce the competition is sometimes).


    First time I hear someone make a good argument in this direction.

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    TheSmokingHertog
    Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
    #8 - 2016-06-26 20:58:34 UTC

    Quote:


    TheSmokingHertog wrote:


    Then, in the Citadel expansion, traders are faced with a higher tax in NPC stations, to promote citadel markets. I can follow that reasoning. But when you choose to market the masses in an NPC station, and you are a station trader, you have to eat the taxes each time you want to resupply / replenish an order due to the following facts;

  • You work up standings with a char for a faction / race
  • That char has 305 orders
  • Mass working a multitude of products, say 6 slots a product in Jita, as example, leaves you with just 50 products.

    • If you want to work bulk long time markets, with high turnover volumes, where you want to secure hedges or make bets. You have to work with a certain stock in market and work within the limited room given in a char, or you have to start multiple alts. But still, when relisting product, you have to pay taxes over and over. Please give us the means to decently replenish our orders.
    ...


    Wait, what? Why don't you just pay the 100ISK broker fee for adjusting the price by a cent? This completely resets the timer. There is a distinct tradeoff between larger orders and smaller orders due to this exactly. If you're not making money then your strategy is bad. To make best use of your order slots, you should do something like this:

    Assume some item has a median buy of 1.7 mil and a median sell of 2.2 mil:


    • List 100 units at 2.3 mil for 90 days
    • When there are only a few units left, lower the price to 2.2 (or lower depending on volume), this resets the timer again but you don't care about that, since the order is going to get filled soon
    • List 100 units at 2.3 mil for 90 days from your stockpiles (which you probably replenished somehow)


    Taxes are there for a reason, if you want a tax break go sit in the right citadels or make backdoor deals. As a hardcore trader I can tell you that these changes that have happened are all really good (except for no contracts in citadels, which pretty much cancels out all the good stuff I've been saying about citadels because I can't pay others to do stuff for me in citadels).



    I dont mind paying to change taxes, I dont want to pay taxes on goods I already put on the market, if the 90 days are over, and I want to put up my stock again, I have to pay taxes again on the same order. If I add stuff to the order, it should be taxed, and the broker fee is ok too. I just want the stuff that is in market, to stay there for sale. Now if I want to top up an order, I have to cancel it, put in more stuff, then relist and repay taxes.

    Quote:


    TheSmokingHertog wrote:


    With the arguments of CCP with growing empires, would it be unreasonable to give some love to the Enablers that work within the EVE economy, to give them the tools that support this bigger game CCP keeps talking about, just like CCP does for the people supplying the physical means in game?


    Now this... this is just plain old entitlement. You want to be rewarded for enabling trade? You think CCP should do it because it's their game? You're playing the wrong MMO my friend. You want to be rewarded for enabling trade? You find a forking decent trade route or come up with a great strategy or supply goods to a group that didn't know it needed them. It's up to YOU in the sandbox, not the devs, to make things go smoothly (or not).


    I want to be rewarded as someone who is part of the EVE community. The entitlement you are reading into it, is the fact that 90% of the resources are diverted to PVP related issues, while issues in contracts are here since 2003 and simply never fixed.

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
    Messenger Of Truth
    Butlerian Crusade
    #9 - 2016-06-27 14:29:03 UTC
    Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

    Contracts however definitely need looking int - but I am praying that the contract system is due for an overhaul as well. So we shall see.


    Yep long overdue. Things like drag'n'drop of destinations into courier contracts, and more control over the completion period for courier contracts are sorely needed. 24h is a ridiculously long time period to have as the minimum.

    Trade Hub Price Checker: stop.hammerti.me.uk/pricecheck

    Visit "Haulers Channel" in game for all matters courier-related.

    Structure name/system API: stop.hammerti.me.uk/api
    TheSmokingHertog
    Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
    #10 - 2016-07-04 12:33:33 UTC
    Messenger Of Truth wrote:
    Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

    Contracts however definitely need looking int - but I am praying that the contract system is due for an overhaul as well. So we shall see.


    Yep long overdue. Things like drag'n'drop of destinations into courier contracts, and more control over the completion period for courier contracts are sorely needed. 24h is a ridiculously long time period to have as the minimum.


    It sure is.

    "Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

    "Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

    -= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-