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Warp Disruption Countermeasure I
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2012-01-14 21:32:25 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
The ecm drones are too specialised, expensive, take lots of training, the warp core stablisers aren't guranteed to work and take out your targeting, MWDs are too slow against large fleets and get pricey if you get blown up a couple of times, cloaks are too specialised, too pricey and take too long for a newbie to train, ecm bursts aren't guaranteed to work and scouting is only good for verbally mocking gate campers, they won't enable you to live in 0.0 or low sec space properly.

There are number of problems with these options you suggest and you know it and making it so that anyone can use the module is not 'abuse' it's called balanced because if everyone can use it when they please then that means no one has an advantage, that's what balancing is, it's making things equal.


A flight of ECM drones costs 35k at jita prices. If 35,000 isk is too expensive, what, exactly, are you doing all day? From nothing, it takes a little over a week to train to use them. I've used them to get out of gatecamps several times, in battleships even.

MWDs also cost virtually nothing. They're also not too slow. Ever flown a dram, or a 'ceptor? Those fly rings around gatecamps. (And a tanaris is what, 10 mil?)

WCS aren't for combat ships, you're right. They're for travel fits and maybe haulers. Fit them, and refit once you're wherever you were aiming to go.

I just checked in Evemon, it takes a month to get into a stealth bomber with a covops cloak and torpedos. How long is short enough for you? How much is cheap enough? You appear to want something virtually free that can be trained in a day or two.

I admit I don't use ECM burts, so I can't comment on those, but ECM itself should work quite nicley.

Scouting will tell you where a camp is so you can try an alternate route. What more do you want?


Can you tell us what you're actually hoping to achieve once you get into someone else's space?
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-01-14 21:46:11 UTC
I hereby declare this to be a very successful troll thread.
10/10
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#83 - 2012-01-14 22:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
I'd never want to fly one of these; but it actually fits lol

[Proteus, NullScout lolfit]
Caldari Navy Co-Processor
Caldari Navy Co-Processor
Caldari Navy Co-Processor
'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I
'Halcyon' Core Equalizer I

Gistum C-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Command Processor I
Command Processor I

Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
'Lance' Medium EMP Smartbomb I
'Lance' Medium EMP Smartbomb I

Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing II

Proteus Defensive - Warfare Processor
Proteus Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier


Hornet EC-300 x5
Berserker SW-900 x1
Acolyte TD-300 x5
Berserker TP-900 x1
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Valei Khurelem
#84 - 2012-01-15 09:06:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
Can you tell us what you're actually hoping to achieve once you get into someone else's space?


It may interest you to know that I don't go anywhere near 'other peoples' space, there are people who go in 0.0 just wanting to get at rare ore in 0.0 empires or do mission running ( not everyones out to get you and you're precious sovereignty ) to get those fancy pirate ships that are available at the loyalty point store. Trying to make 0.0 mission running viable is one of the few decent things you lot could do for people who want to dwell in 0.0 space, but I bet you're somehow going to stay in denial about that and claim it will make faction ships too easy to get and then you'll have a harder fight as well.

That said, yet again, it's obvious you aren't a PvP player you're just someone who wants to own your own slice of space, keep everyone out of it as easy as possible and have very little to contend with while doing it, in fact, I'd go so far as to say you're a carebear who can't stand the thought of losing something in a game it's just in this case it's sovereignty rather than ships or ISK.

Also, yes, that may well work mars, but that's my point, there's only one or two options in this bloody game that actually work against gate campers and blob fleets, what we need are more options, not only for vets but for noobs as well. It's even been suggested at one point we have suicide ships that can do AoE damage, you just pack a bunch of explosives in them put a count down and then you're ship gets taken out along with others or they get damaged like hell depending on the size.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#85 - 2012-01-15 10:13:26 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Blablabla, you aren't PvPers I am. My ideas are awesome so I don't need to respond to criticism. Current mechanics are too hard to learn I want easy mode.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Valei Khurelem
#86 - 2012-01-15 10:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
and yet you guys want easy mode when it comes to 0.0 sovereignty so no one can fight you :)

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#87 - 2012-01-15 11:07:34 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
and yet you guys want easy mode when it comes to 0.0 sovereignty so no one can fight you :)

People can fight us, just not in solo rifters.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Valei Khurelem
#88 - 2012-01-15 11:10:35 UTC
And by fight, you mean small gangs who accidentally wonder into your warp bubbles and get ganked before they can do anything and you run away from one ship and dock because you think a lone player coming through is going to be a scout?

Yet again, you're making baseless assumptions about what I want with this idea, I wonder how many pages it will be before you finally give up and realise I'm not budging on the issue that this game's PvP is broken.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#89 - 2012-01-15 11:16:59 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
And by fight, you mean small gangs who accidentally wonder into your warp bubbles and get ganked before they can do anything and you run away from one ship and dock because you think a lone player coming through is going to be a scout?

Yet again, you're making baseless assumptions about what I want with this idea, I wonder how many pages it will be before you finally give up and realise I'm not budging on the issue that this game's PvP is broken.

Wait, so we gank small gangs but dock up from one ship? Coherent much? In Eve you are required to defend your space, that means killing people that come into it. If a single player wants to play in null without aggro, they can rent or go to NPC space (although you'll still have to be on your toes in NPC space).

Alternatively they can ninja plex, something I've done for a very long time. It is not impossible, and it is very good fun. Your proposal removes the fun from it. There's even a thread on ninja plexing in the missions and complexes section, I suggest you read it.

And it will be many pages, because whilst I know CCP will never implement this feature it is entertaining explaining to you why it is unnecessary and ripe for abuse.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Valei Khurelem
#90 - 2012-01-15 11:20:56 UTC
Like I've said in several posts, we can raise the duration if people find the module is getting abused too much, why are you still trying to argue about this?

Also, how do you know CCP will never implement this? Does your cousin work there? How can you claim to be speaking for them when you have no association? Particularly since you have no dev tag in your name, I don't recall a certain portion of the player base ever claiming ownership over the game, I believe it's CCP who owns it.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Kusariqqu
BB8's
#91 - 2012-01-15 11:36:27 UTC
Ok you can have your module that allows you not to be caught, but it takes away all the bonus's from the ship, doesnt allow you to lock anything and you go 1/2 the speed that your ship is capable of and you cant activate any mods.

This seems fair to me, unless youd just rather use WCS that the game already has an abundance of and deal with it.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-01-15 11:36:30 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:

It may interest you to know that I don't go anywhere near 'other peoples' space, there are people who go in 0.0 just wanting to get at rare ore in 0.0 empires or do mission running ( not everyones out to get you and you're precious sovereignty ) to get those fancy pirate ships that are available at the loyalty point store. Trying to make 0.0 mission running viable is one of the few decent things you lot could do for people who want to dwell in 0.0 space, but I bet you're somehow going to stay in denial about that and claim it will make faction ships too easy to get and then you'll have a harder fight as well.


If this is the kind of thing that you feel needs the boost, fine. But your OP idea is not the way to go. null-sec missions are dangerous for other reasons...the static nature of agents for one, the ease with which ships can be probed and so on. If you wish to improve missions then make suggestions aimed at the issues with missions.

Quote:
That said, yet again, it's obvious you aren't a PvP player you're just someone who wants to own your own slice of space, keep everyone out of it as easy as possible and have very little to contend with while doing it, in fact, I'd go so far as to say you're a carebear who can't stand the thought of losing something in a game it's just in this case it's sovereignty rather than ships or ISK.


One could very easily say the same about you. A mod such as you suggest would make solo/ small gang PvP extraordinarily dull. An easy-escape module would become standard fit on just about everything. Utterly pointless to fly in anything other than a one-shot alpha gang. I don't particularly enjoy flying in that type of gang, do you?
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-01-15 11:42:25 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
and yet you guys want easy mode when it comes to 0.0 sovereignty so no one can fight you :)


No, its exactly the opposite.

The very mechanics that you are complaining about (bubbles of all forms) are available to everyone and allows them to force a fight assuming they are bright enough to use them effectively. That works the same for an alliance locking down a choke point entry to their space, or a hostile group locking down the same system to prevent that alliance getting reinforcements and fuel.

Bubbles are just a tool, and they can be used by everyone to achieve a variety of ends, but every use of them involves controlling the movements of other people which can be aggressive or defensive.

A lot of the time, bubbles are being used to kill under-prepared people that never saw them coming. That's fair because if they had a scout, or a bounce spot, or just looked at local from time to time they probably wouldn't get caught.

Outside of that, bubbles ensure fleet fights (anywhere from 5 on 5 to 1000 on 1000) are more decisive and destructive. Bubbles ensure both FCs have to have a decent plan. If they don't, boom, whole fleet dead. If you could just warp in at 0 on the enemy see what happens and run away with the whole fleet intact, fleet fights just wouldn't happen anymore. And that means that no-one can attack anything ever, because attacking is already much much harder than defending (not because of bubbles, its because attackers have to deal with very very long supply lines, much longer delays between reinforcements, a lack of jump bridges and cyno jammers and of course, the myriad problems of killing large numbers of well defended POSes on a schedule the defenders decide). If you can't control your enemies movement then you can't ever fight him, and essentially none of the wars in 0.0 would ever have happened. When the first few POS started going down, people would have just pulled their ships out and gone home. In essence, bubbling is an indispensable tool, both for attackers and defenders in 0.0.

To go entirely to the flip side where bubbles are helping the smaller guys, I saw a video recently of a drake gang using dictors to constantly bubble between them and an enemy gang so that nothing could warp straight on top of them. I had never seen that before, or even thought about using bubbles like that. The drakes led a merry dance around the maelstroms and stole a lot of kills from under thier noses while the maels couldn't do a damn thing except run away or hang around and slowly die. Similarly, dropping a bubble on a gate behind your small gang prevents a big fleet behind you from catching up to you.

What I'm saying here is that bubbles are a tool that are available to everyone. Successful use of them does sometimes allow you to get cheap kills. But then again when you bring enough people, every kill is cheap. Gate camps are an integral part of 0.0, as is attacking them. A prime target for any decent sized roaming gang is a gate camp, because the campers are bubbled too , and aggroed and thus you can really put the thumb screws to them.

An easy way out of bubbles (and of course any tackle) means that there is no way to force a fight, ever. Not even against a guy who attacked you first and became out of his depth. It means that there is never a way to conclude a fight other than POS bashing.

You seem to be under the assumption that there actually needs to be some way out of every fight for everyone. This is definitively not the case. Without forcing fights, there is no fighting, there are no kills but huge fleets alphaing each other, and there is nothing left to fight over in eve.

Even the concept of you suggesting that its desirable to give people an easy way out of a fight is anathema to the way that eve works. There are big penalties to picking a bad fight, or getting trapped by a wily opponent.

To restate it again, an easy way out of a fight is not fun for anyone. The first time you use it you are all 'GO ME', but then when it gets used on you again and again and again, the fun vanishes.

At some point in eve, everyone makes the transition from prey to predator. For people who are still deer in headlights, this modules makes sense, because they don't see how integral pvp is to this game, or that this is where the majority of the fun in the game comes from for a lot of people. For people who are predators (ie those who are more often the ones killing than being killed, and certainly more often than they are being stuck in a bubble and ganked by a fleet) they can see that this module destroys conflict and pvp and thus their enjoyment of the game.

If you like to run away and not die and that is fun to you, there is already lots of ways to do that. No, they are not 100% effective, you have to be good to make them work. And that's... life. Deal dude.
Valei Khurelem
#94 - 2012-01-15 11:53:30 UTC
Quote:
The very mechanics that you are complaining about (bubbles of all forms) are available to everyone and allows them to force a fight assuming they are bright enough to use them effectively. That works the same for an alliance locking down a choke point entry to their space, or a hostile group locking down the same system to prevent that alliance getting reinforcements and fuel.



Finally! :) people who are capable of a debate have come out of the woodwork.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though Valea, we have ganking tools available for anyone and everyone to use, but why are there no anti-gank tools that are available for everyone? That isn't balanced in any way, as for the OPness of my idea, I've frequently requested for you lot against the idea to make a suggestion that would work better and I think at least raising the activation time of the module would help things a lot and not make bubbles completely useless.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-01-15 12:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: betoli
.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-01-15 12:29:57 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Quote:
The very mechanics that you are complaining about (bubbles of all forms) are available to everyone and allows them to force a fight assuming they are bright enough to use them effectively. That works the same for an alliance locking down a choke point entry to their space, or a hostile group locking down the same system to prevent that alliance getting reinforcements and fuel.



Finally! :) people who are capable of a debate have come out of the woodwork.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though Valea, we have ganking tools available for anyone and everyone to use, but why are there no anti-gank tools that are available for everyone? That isn't balanced in any way, as for the OPness of my idea, I've frequently requested for you lot against the idea to make a suggestion that would work better and I think at least raising the activation time of the module would help things a lot and not make bubbles completely useless.


It is nice to see some sensible debate around this. IMO the scram/disrupt is currently far too large a sledgehammer and the counters are weak. Newer and solo/small gangs are disadvantaged, and this restricts game-play styles and diversity, which I don't think is a good thing. A mechanic that gives some survivability improvement to small gangs/solo facing a significantly larger fleet would be a good thing. Ideally that's something that can be tuned to make balanced game-play rather another sledgehammer to counter the existing sledgehammer.

You also have to bear in mind that any module can be fitted to any fleet, not just the small gang - that makes balancing inherently hard. But I'd like to see the conversation moved away from the suggestion of a particular module with particular characteristics which is is easy to shoot down because its a little naive, and move toward what options there, and what overall balance people would like to see.



  • What stops a device designed for small gangs being used by large gangs too. What mechanic specifically makes it redress balance in heavily mismatched fleet sizes?

  • What is an acceptable survival rate when the few meet the many, such that the few don't give up and join a big blob fleet themselves?

  • What sort of penalty to offence (and regular defence) should be incurred by someone fitting a 'surviveable' ship like this (either fitting req or passive effects)?

  • Why don't the existing counters work very well?

  • What sort of penalty should be suffered for using this new defense?

  • Should the existing mechanic be tweaked or can this be fixed purely by adding new stuff?













Kusariqqu
BB8's
#97 - 2012-01-15 13:23:35 UTC
When you go into 0.0 you all know the risk that is involed with running thro the systems. Yes Everyone has access to deploy bubbles this is why you fly with a capable scout who can micro cloak away from trouble and tell you what is at the oher side and then take the necessary action.

The tool that is used to prevent been ganked is your brain. And if you cant handle the fact there might be a fleet with a bubble waiting to gank your arse dont go into 0.0. T3's alrady have mods that allow you to get out of bubble and i can bet my bottom doller that t3 frig will do as well once they materialise.

If you want small gang warefare without running the risk of been bubbled stay in low sec where you can safely get away if your outnumbered, when your in 0.0 its tough, it goes back to the old moto "dont fly what you cant afford to lose".
Valei Khurelem
#98 - 2012-01-15 14:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Now people have said to me "have you gone into 0.0 space before?" and I have, the one thing that's the biggest problem isn't necessarily losing your ship, it's the fact that it's so damn hard to replace everything, there's no real market hubs in 0.0 space, the few people who are selling stuff are understandably selling stuff at high prices because of the risk involved in them mining. There are also no blueprints in 0.0 space for sale by NPCs so that means it is very difficult for people to re-stock what they've lost or even produce anything since you have to fly through 0.0 chokepoints with valuable blueprint originals inevitably waiting to get blown up by the gatecampers that love going after you for kicks if you aren't fast enough.

In fact oh look! I've just thought of an alternative to this idea for you! Why not have blueprint originals up for sale by pirate NPCs so that people who want to go and live in empire space might have a chance if they earn enough cash? The only problem then of course is you have to find a way to deal with station campers who wait for industrial players to come out and gank their ships even though they're the ones who built the very ships they're flying, which goes back to why I made this thread in the first place.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#99 - 2012-01-15 16:36:50 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
Now people have said to me "have you gone into 0.0 space before?" and I have, the one thing that's the biggest problem isn't necessarily losing your ship, it's the fact that it's so damn hard to replace everything, there's no real market hubs in 0.0 space, the few people who are selling stuff are understandably selling stuff at high prices because of the risk involved in them mining. There are also no blueprints in 0.0 space for sale by NPCs so that means it is very difficult for people to re-stock what they've lost or even produce anything since you have to fly through 0.0 chokepoints with valuable blueprint originals inevitably waiting to get blown up by the gatecampers that love going after you for kicks if you aren't fast enough.

In fact oh look! I've just thought of an alternative to this idea for you! Why not have blueprint originals up for sale by pirate NPCs so that people who want to go and live in empire space might have a chance if they earn enough cash? The only problem then of course is you have to find a way to deal with station campers who wait for industrial players to come out and gank their ships even though they're the ones who built the very ships they're flying, which goes back to why I made this thread in the first place.

If you live in 0.0 and don't make enough ISK to replace ships then you are doing it wrong. Similarly, if you can't set up a supply chain to/from high sec in which you manage to not lose a reasonable number of ships then again, you're doing it wrong.

There are ways around it, even without joining an alliance (although that is recommended). For one thing, have you considered not living in 0.0, but raiding 0.0 systems instead?

As for station campers, again, if you can't avoid a station camp... seriously?! Undock, ctrl+space, redock. Learn not to buy stuff from heavily camped stations, use insta-warps to get out if they don't have a bubble/very quick lock etc.

Going solo in 0.0 isn't supposed to be easy, that is Eve at it's absolute hardest. Introducing mechanisms to attempt to address that non-issue will always just be abused by older better connected players. If you wish to be completely independent in Eve, and have an easy life in which you never lose a ship, try low sec. Otherwise, I quite like life being difficult, it's what makes Eve fun. Please don't try and ruin it for the rest of us.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Valei Khurelem
#100 - 2012-01-15 16:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
I don't want it to be easy, I want it to be possible, as I've been saying in the past several pages. Also, ruining it for the rest of us? Who's us? This game is aggressively tilted against anyone who doesn't want to be a part of a blob fleet or large alliance and as people have been commenting on around the forum low sec is dead and this is because the game isn't balanced enough to have a fair fight since there is an insane lack of player input in this game which is why bots do everything now.

Why even bother posting when you not only have no real argument besides staying in denial and making baseless assumptions about me? I'm lucky with 0.0 space because I found a part of it that I like which is generally quite quiet so I can sneak a shuttle through without much trouble, the moment that someone gets a gatecamp set up their? Guess what? I'm blockaded and ganked, you can't do things for extended periods of time because if some one scans you down you won't have a chance of escaping, so that also means you can't progress through the game.

How is, making it so you can actually play the game, ruining the fun for the rest of you? If this is your idea of fun, you are a sad individual.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium