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CCPlease stop mirroring Citadels

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Puonyc
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-06-16 16:31:07 UTC
Because I don't like free intel and I can promise you that next time I plan an eviction of W-space, I will use the test servers to scout vulnerability timers and fittings without the defenders having a chance of spotting me..

So for the sake of fair play, please stop handing out free intel.

Thanks.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#2 - 2016-06-20 23:15:45 UTC
I didn't realize they were mirroring Citadels. There is a precedent for not mirroring already: CCP does not mirror POSes. I think you are right in that they should not mirror them as well. Despite the fact you can have a jump clone in a Citadel and have your medical clone in one as well - except in WH space, they really should treat this the same way.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2016-06-21 01:42:29 UTC
We discussed this before this mirror happened and we ended up with mirroring citadels (at least for this mirror), for following reasons:


  • Citadels are in general more public than POS - all Citadels are shown on the sensor overlay, even hostile ones. (Sure, you need to be in the system to see Citadels without docking rights)
  • There is less information to be gained by just looking at a Citadel compared to looking at a POS - you don't see how it is fitted and so on
  • There is less information to be gained by killing a Citadel compared to killing a POS - in K-space you will only see the fitting. I admit that this is not true for W-space, where loot is jettisoned.
  • It is a bit more complicated to exclude Citadels from mirroring than POS. For POS we are dropping full DB tables, for citadels we would need to do at least some kind of cleanup (and possibly use the safety system, which would cost time in mirror preparation).


I totally see that W-space has a bit different requirements than the rest of the universe, but I hope that the current solution is also acceptable there. If there are major concerns regarding this, then we can for sure look into changing this for future mirrors.

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#4 - 2016-06-21 09:01:21 UTC
Give the owner of the Citadels on TQ the option to allow mirroring to test servers. Maybe thats easier then changing wormhole citadel systems. Would just be a "if yes then mirror" thingie.

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
Puonyc
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-06-21 15:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Puonyc
CCP Habakuk wrote:
We discussed this before this mirror happened and we ended up with mirroring citadels (at least for this mirror), for following reasons:


  • Citadels are in general more public than POS - all Citadels are shown on the sensor overlay, even hostile ones. (Sure, you need to be in the system to see Citadels without docking rights)
  • There is less information to be gained by just looking at a Citadel compared to looking at a POS - you don't see how it is fitted and so on
  • There is less information to be gained by killing a Citadel compared to killing a POS - in K-space you will only see the fitting. I admit that this is not true for W-space, where loot is jettisoned.
  • It is a bit more complicated to exclude Citadels from mirroring than POS. For POS we are dropping full DB tables, for citadels we would need to do at least some kind of cleanup (and possibly use the safety system, which would cost time in mirror preparation).


I totally see that W-space has a bit different requirements than the rest of the universe, but I hope that the current solution is also acceptable there. If there are major concerns regarding this, then we can for sure look into changing this for future mirrors.


My main concern was that you mirror the citadels fittings and vulnerability timers. Didn't even consider using SISI as a way of checking the personal content of the citadel :3

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you can scan the citadel to see it's fittings(Shipscanner maybe?), which is def. something I would do on SISI before engaging. Combine that with the fact that the fittings gets locked when the citadel gets attacked, makes a very nice advantage to the attackers since you'll have all the time you need to set up your fleet to counter the citadel fittings.

I feel like it is a lot of intel to hand out. Especially for w-space.
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
#6 - 2016-06-23 22:35:12 UTC
I´m aware that we wormhole residents represent only about 4-5% of the eve players.
So we are pretty much a negligible number.

But for us the mirroring of citadels is HUGE.
I can now destroy citadels located in wormhole space on the testserver and instantly gain intel about the residents that i wouldn´t gain even with a director level spy in such a corp.
Since in wormhole space there is 100% loot drop i know the exact number of ships their fitting and value of everthing stored inside the citadels.
So i get free intel about their fleet doctrines i can make precise assesments about what risk they posses for my potential eviction fleet and even if a eviction aka 48h investment is worth it.
Hell i can even break it down to isk per hour for everyone who is part of an eviction fleet.

I don´t know about you – but i find that a huge advantage gained by means i can´t consider fair.
The only way to prevent anyone from gaining that intel is if you defend your citadel against this even on the testserver.
A prospect that doesn´t seem appealing but pretty much is a necessity because a considerable amout of our assets are present in citadels
and loosing them is something that has resulted in quite a few corps disbanding in the past.

So i hope this is gonna get changed – better sooner than latter.
I recommend initializing a script on the testserver that destroy every citadel after a mirror.
In K-Space this doesn´t have a huge impact since the assetsafety protects the whole assets and reclaiming it shouldn´t be a major problem since isk on the testserver isn´t given insurances etc.
But destroying citadels in w-space alone would suffice.
Jonny Copper
The Cadre Arareb Foundation
#7 - 2016-06-26 05:29:11 UTC
I would agree that it technically is giving out free intel but there are also other aspects to take into account.

For one, unless you knew when the mirror was happening and had an alt seeded in a target hole you would have to chain collapse for hours/day to find said target on sisi.

Second, if you were to find said target you would then have to find a way to reo it twice over the span of an entire week before being able to kill it.

Finally, even though CCP doesnt really do anything about this anymore killing a citadel outside of the combat area without consent is breaking the rules. Hypothetically speaking if CCP kicked back into gear in this regard you'd get banned after destroying 1 citadel on all the characters involved. Assuming you actually make it past the 2 reo stages without the owner noticing by loging in the check his corporate intel isnt getting compromised himself.
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
#8 - 2016-06-26 15:22:58 UTC
Jonny Copper wrote:
I would agree that it technically is giving out free intel but there are also other aspects to take into account.

For one, unless you knew when the mirror was happening and had an alt seeded in a target hole you would have to chain collapse for hours/day to find said target on sisi.

Second, if you were to find said target you would then have to find a way to reo it twice over the span of an entire week before being able to kill it.

Finally, even though CCP doesnt really do anything about this anymore killing a citadel outside of the combat area without consent is breaking the rules. Hypothetically speaking if CCP kicked back into gear in this regard you'd get banned after destroying 1 citadel on all the characters involved. Assuming you actually make it past the 2 reo stages without the owner noticing by loging in the check his corporate intel isnt getting compromised himself.


Sure those guys might get banned - but for that to happen you first have to notice that someone destroyed your citadel on TQ and second you have to report them.
Otherwise those rules and bans aren´t enforced by CCP.
And given the random times mirror happens this requires a lot of effort on our part and even if we recognize that somehting like this has happened the damage by lost intel isn´t outweighed by having banned some chars.

I fear it might become a hobby for some - to systematically destroy womrhole citadels and post their content on reddit and even sell bookmarks to those holes. And give those in my eyes illegally obtained intel to the masses.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-06-30 05:55:31 UTC
Samsara Nolte wrote:
I´m aware that we wormhole residents represent only about 4-5% of the eve players.
So we are pretty much a negligible number.

But for us the mirroring of citadels is HUGE.
I can now destroy citadels located in wormhole space on the testserver and instantly gain intel about the residents that i wouldn´t gain even with a director level spy in such a corp.
Since in wormhole space there is 100% loot drop i know the exact number of ships their fitting and value of everthing stored inside the citadels.
So i get free intel about their fleet doctrines i can make precise assesments about what risk they posses for my potential eviction fleet and even if a eviction aka 48h investment is worth it.
Hell i can even break it down to isk per hour for everyone who is part of an eviction fleet.

I don´t know about you – but i find that a huge advantage gained by means i can´t consider fair.
The only way to prevent anyone from gaining that intel is if you defend your citadel against this even on the testserver.
A prospect that doesn´t seem appealing but pretty much is a necessity because a considerable amout of our assets are present in citadels
and loosing them is something that has resulted in quite a few corps disbanding in the past.

So i hope this is gonna get changed – better sooner than latter.
I recommend initializing a script on the testserver that destroy every citadel after a mirror.
In K-Space this doesn´t have a huge impact since the assetsafety protects the whole assets and reclaiming it shouldn´t be a major problem since isk on the testserver isn´t given insurances etc.
But destroying citadels in w-space alone would suffice.


Agree. It provides such a huge intel advantage for WH Evictions it really should be considered a exploit. CCP FIX THIS !

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Xynthiar
OnlyFleets.
#10 - 2016-07-02 22:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Xynthiar
As for seeing fits and vulnerability timers of K-space citadels, it's no easier to do it on sisi than it is on tq, and your intel will often be several weeks outdated, so I don't see that as a concern at all.

I definitely see the Wormholers concern though; perhaps only WH citadels could be excluded?
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
xX SERENITY Xx
#11 - 2016-07-11 18:49:44 UTC
well mirroring citadels in wormholes is bad idea since their configuration is usually not changed so often blowing up it on sisi even after few weeks of mirror can still give ou sufficient information what ou need to evict them in tranquility. but HEY

does sisi non combat rules apply to citadels in other systems than 6-c ? anyway who follow these rules? who? nobody. people wardec on sisi to blow up highsec custom offices so why not shoot citadel in wormhole.

so just simply dont mirror the wormhole citadels as this does result in revealing citadel owner weak spots
or if you can defend the citadel on singularity , do it. its easy to build dreads/carriers on test server in wspace so putting up few capitals in production to later blow up the citadel
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention
#12 - 2016-07-25 20:50:13 UTC
Combine this two, and will be golden:
Tragot Gomndor wrote:
Give the owner of the Citadels on TQ the option to allow mirroring to test servers. Maybe thats easier then changing wormhole citadel systems. Would just be a "if yes then mirror" thingie.


Samsara Nolte wrote:
I recommend initializing a script on the testserver that destroy every citadel after a mirror.
In K-Space this doesn´t have a huge impact since the assetsafety protects the whole assets and reclaiming it shouldn´t be a major problem since isk on the testserver isn´t given insurances etc.
But destroying citadels in w-space alone would suffice.