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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#101 - 2016-05-29 21:47:02 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well shows how much you know about 0.0, not all space is massive blue lists, you also have WH's giving access to your systems and of course some of us operate in NPC 0.0 in small groups.

Have a look at the OPs alliance.


I did, and I saw who was next to them and I have seen how some of them operate, if you think that the OP's alliance can trust their joint intel lists then I don't know what to say to you, they often have people blues that they do not report. I have seen this shite so many times its laughable.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#102 - 2016-05-30 07:33:49 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


I use carriers to PvE in lowsec regularly. I give zero ***** about a neutral in local.

I'm literally "camped" 24/7 by people but oddly I am not put off by this.


Gold star to you, if you read this thread you will notice that I have used carriers in 0.0 and I have also done this when camped, it is however not the full story and you know it, the OP said he was not supported in his TZ, which means he needs to find a more suitable alliance to be honest.

At the time I did this in a carrier I had two other carriers with me and a couple of other people ready to come in, we also knew what we would face, we judged the three carriers would be too much for what they could hit us with which proved right by the fact they did not. However the bets were then off when they brought a Super in range.

Now we get deeper into it, who are you blue with, who are around you and where is your enemy focussed, all these questions and more come to mind from a simple, I am literally camped 24/7 and I give zero whatevers. Idiotic people will just go parrot fashion oh the OP is whining, but more deep and meaningful people will think deeper on where your superiority comes from.

There is so much chest beating and throw away one liners on the Eve forums and while I know of your corp and alliance and I know they are very good, you need to tell a bit more about who your facing and what you could escalate too before you can get any respect from me for that one liner. Question, are you still ratting with Initiative in Syndicate, and if so what can you counter with, answers on a postcard...


Nobody in the area I use carriers is blue to me. Nobody. I'm hunted constantly. And it is lowsec, so there is no way to clear the system, or blockade with hero anchored bubbles. I'm not going to say exactly where because that would be silly, but I'm beset by people who hunt all the time and drop on any and everything cruiser and up for funsises, never mind a carrier.

Point people seem to be missing is that there are steps people can take to ensure their own safety as opposed to crying that CCP must do something to make them safer because there is a neut in local.

That's the thing. It's only ever the nullbears who complain about this, no-one else. It is not a coincidence.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2016-05-30 09:54:58 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nobody in the area I use carriers is blue to me. Nobody. I'm hunted constantly. And it is lowsec, so there is no way to clear the system, or blockade with hero anchored bubbles. I'm not going to say exactly where because that would be silly, but I'm beset by people who hunt all the time and drop on any and everything cruiser and up for funsises, never mind a carrier.

Point people seem to be missing is that there are steps people can take to ensure their own safety as opposed to crying that CCP must do something to make them safer because there is a neut in local.

That's the thing. It's only ever the nullbears who complain about this, no-one else. It is not a coincidence.
I live in lowsec as well, sure we're used to being always on our toes.

Problem that I see is that if your alliance puts in the effort to conquer and defend sov, it's weird that you still need to be on your toes when you PVE.

I mean, what's the point of conquering space if you still have to deal with attackers in basically the same way you would deal with them in lowsec, wh or npc null (meaning: basically running away in a PVE ship, unless you and/or your friends are specifically set up to counter attackers)?

Don't get me wrong, the 'AFK problem' part honestly just makes me laugh. I understood Drac's points above but I still disagree with the notion that 'AFK' needs to be 'countered'.

But I do have the impression that sov and empire-building at the moment don't really give you much advantages in defending PVE activities. Kinda takes away the appeal of empire-building to me.

One would think you could build walls to defend your peasants, so that any attackers would have to tear down those walls first.

In EVE, the gates are always open and attackers can always teleport inside anyway.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#104 - 2016-05-30 10:27:19 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nobody in the area I use carriers is blue to me. Nobody. I'm hunted constantly. And it is lowsec, so there is no way to clear the system, or blockade with hero anchored bubbles. I'm not going to say exactly where because that would be silly, but I'm beset by people who hunt all the time and drop on any and everything cruiser and up for funsises, never mind a carrier.

Point people seem to be missing is that there are steps people can take to ensure their own safety as opposed to crying that CCP must do something to make them safer because there is a neut in local.

That's the thing. It's only ever the nullbears who complain about this, no-one else. It is not a coincidence.
I live in lowsec as well, sure we're used to being always on our toes.

Problem that I see is that if your alliance puts in the effort to conquer and defend sov, it's weird that you still need to be on your toes when you PVE.

I mean, what's the point of conquering space if you still have to deal with attackers in basically the same way you would deal with them in lowsec, wh or npc null (meaning: basically running away in a PVE ship, unless you and/or your friends are specifically set up to counter attackers)?

Don't get me wrong, the 'AFK problem' part honestly just makes me laugh. I understood Drac's points above but I still disagree with the notion that 'AFK' needs to be 'countered'.

But I do have the impression that sov and empire-building at the moment don't really give you much advantages in defending PVE activities. Kinda takes away the appeal of empire-building to me.

One would think you could build walls to defend your peasants, so that any attackers would have to tear down those walls first.

In EVE, the gates are always open and attackers can always teleport inside anyway.

Yeah, let's just let them rat in perfect safety so they can bot and RMT even better.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2016-05-30 11:50:49 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nobody in the area I use carriers is blue to me. Nobody. I'm hunted constantly. And it is lowsec, so there is no way to clear the system, or blockade with hero anchored bubbles. I'm not going to say exactly where because that would be silly, but I'm beset by people who hunt all the time and drop on any and everything cruiser and up for funsises, never mind a carrier.

Point people seem to be missing is that there are steps people can take to ensure their own safety as opposed to crying that CCP must do something to make them safer because there is a neut in local.

That's the thing. It's only ever the nullbears who complain about this, no-one else. It is not a coincidence.
I live in lowsec as well, sure we're used to being always on our toes.

Problem that I see is that if your alliance puts in the effort to conquer and defend sov, it's weird that you still need to be on your toes when you PVE.

I mean, what's the point of conquering space if you still have to deal with attackers in basically the same way you would deal with them in lowsec, wh or npc null (meaning: basically running away in a PVE ship, unless you and/or your friends are specifically set up to counter attackers)?

Don't get me wrong, the 'AFK problem' part honestly just makes me laugh. I understood Drac's points above but I still disagree with the notion that 'AFK' needs to be 'countered'.

But I do have the impression that sov and empire-building at the moment don't really give you much advantages in defending PVE activities. Kinda takes away the appeal of empire-building to me.

One would think you could build walls to defend your peasants, so that any attackers would have to tear down those walls first.

In EVE, the gates are always open and attackers can always teleport inside anyway.

Yeah, let's just let them rat in perfect safety so they can bot and RMT even better.

:facepalm:

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2016-05-30 11:50:54 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Nobody in the area I use carriers is blue to me. Nobody. I'm hunted constantly. And it is lowsec, so there is no way to clear the system, or blockade with hero anchored bubbles. I'm not going to say exactly where because that would be silly, but I'm beset by people who hunt all the time and drop on any and everything cruiser and up for funsises, never mind a carrier.

Point people seem to be missing is that there are steps people can take to ensure their own safety as opposed to crying that CCP must do something to make them safer because there is a neut in local.

That's the thing. It's only ever the nullbears who complain about this, no-one else. It is not a coincidence.
I live in lowsec as well, sure we're used to being always on our toes.

Problem that I see is that if your alliance puts in the effort to conquer and defend sov, it's weird that you still need to be on your toes when you PVE.

I mean, what's the point of conquering space if you still have to deal with attackers in basically the same way you would deal with them in lowsec, wh or npc null (meaning: basically running away in a PVE ship, unless you and/or your friends are specifically set up to counter attackers)?

Don't get me wrong, the 'AFK problem' part honestly just makes me laugh. I understood Drac's points above but I still disagree with the notion that 'AFK' needs to be 'countered'.

But I do have the impression that sov and empire-building at the moment don't really give you much advantages in defending PVE activities. Kinda takes away the appeal of empire-building to me.

One would think you could build walls to defend your peasants, so that any attackers would have to tear down those walls first.

In EVE, the gates are always open and attackers can always teleport inside anyway.



Thing is, there is perfect, uncounterable intel in the shape of local. Unless the pilot is afk, there's absolutely no real way for an interloper to catch them.

You're in local before you even load grid, then you need to dscan the right place to warp to. Then you need to warp and even in a warp speed rigged ceptor, that takes about 10 seconds, unless it's like a sub 1au warp (unlikely). By this time you can get even an unaligned carrier off grid if you're actually playing the game.

The reason people get cranky is afk ratting is just the most scalable way and offsets the otherwise ****** income per toon per hour of null ratting (going active ratting doesn't net enough of a hike to be worth the trouble and seriously inhibits the horizontal scaling multiple "afk" toons give you). And AFK ships get caught left and right.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2016-05-30 12:24:22 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Thing is, there is perfect, uncounterable intel in the shape of local. Unless the pilot is afk, there's absolutely no real way for an interloper to catch them.
Yes. My thoughts on this were:

1) That's exactly the same situation as all k-space. Owning sov doesn't give you more or less intel.

2) Ratter/miner hunting gameplay seems pretty damn boring to me. It seems to boil down to:
. The attacker needs to be as quick as he can to warp on top of the prey and get point
. If the defender is on the ball, as you pointed out it's impossible to catch them anyway (how sad is that?!)
. At the end of the day, you're prey is limited to AFK or lazy people

3) As a PVE-er, your only defence is to run (in large majority of cases)


It would be interesting if there were other ways to defend PVE ships, especially in sov null. The Rorqual feature CCP talked about at fanfest seemed fun to me (temporary invulnerability field, but freezing all friendly ships on grid).

I'd consider extending that to a sov null structure, not just a single ship. So instead of just running away or hiding in station, you'd have the option of freezing your PVE ships (say 5-10 minutes max) to try to call in PVP reinforcements. Then the attackers would have to fight PVP ships to earn the prize of killing PVE ships.

I appreciate that some players enjoy ratter hunting as it is, but maybe many more players would enjoy getting fights out of ratter hunting (instead of ganks).

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#108 - 2016-05-30 13:33:52 UTC
Ah yes, there is a slew wrong with the overall mechanics out there, but I don't think cloaks are something that should be messed with. This is because of all ripple effects in all areas of space to handle a perceived issue in a certain neck of the woods, the entire ecosystem would change and likely not for the better to solve a problem I'm not convinced even exists and could be made even less of a perceived problem via other means.

Also most people I know have a standing fleet up and just pile onto any hotdrop, that gets expensive for the attackers pretty quickly. Especially with the new carriers Smile
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#109 - 2016-05-30 13:36:59 UTC
john sasha wrote:

im not gonna risk my ships and feed him kills so he stays no i just log in and stay docked and never come out until hes gone.

well, you being a totally risk averse noob doesnt mean the game cant be played.
Darius Falc
Unforeseen Consequences.
Valkyrie Alliance
#110 - 2016-06-06 14:40:14 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Shoot them in the face when they decloak. Camper removed. Great way to counter your problem.


This.

I fly cloaked ships all the time. A cloaked ship is either ewar or, if they are set up for PVP camping, a T3. They've partly nerfed their dps by having a cloak. Lure them out with a clever trap then point them and shoot them in the face.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#111 - 2016-06-09 18:55:01 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
3) As a PVE-er, your only defence is to run (in large majority of cases)

It would be interesting if there were other ways to defend PVE ships, especially in sov null. The Rorqual feature CCP talked about at fanfest seemed fun to me (temporary invulnerability field, but freezing all friendly ships on grid).


Do your PvE in a PvP fit ship and fight back when tackled.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#112 - 2016-06-09 19:10:50 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
3) As a PVE-er, your only defence is to run (in large majority of cases)

It would be interesting if there were other ways to defend PVE ships, especially in sov null. The Rorqual feature CCP talked about at fanfest seemed fun to me (temporary invulnerability field, but freezing all friendly ships on grid).


Do your PvE in a PvP fit ship and fight back when tackled.

But that's no longer completely efficient! How dare you give him a solution that works, but also eats into his l33t ISK/hour!

It's so much easier to just complain and cry for nerfs.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Robertina Palazzo
#113 - 2016-06-16 05:12:23 UTC
Afk cloaking isnt an issue,

Afk cloaking 20 hours a day for 3 weeks and being able to come back at any moment and instant point/cyno in a fleet is an issue

Don't bother trying to explain this to people, they get extremely offended if you use logic when explaining that balance means danger is a two way street
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#114 - 2016-06-16 05:56:52 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Paikis wrote:
This thread comes up on almost a weekly basis. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nerf cloaking thread in the first 2 pages on this forum section. Almost every single one of them goes like this:

1. OP posts a post with a new (lol) idea that always boils down to some variation of the following:
- "There's a big meanie who is sitting in my system and not doing anything, but I don't know where he is and I can't ever just go next door. I can't find said meanie and even though I know that he's probably at work and poses no threat at all, I wont do anything in my system that I absolutely can't leave ever because he might not be at work and I might lose a ship. CCP please stop the meanie from being able to do nothing to me because he's probably at work"

2. Thread gets trolled because its been done literally to death. This horse has been beaten so hard and so often that it's little more than a memory of a memory of a red smear on the grass, and yet it STILL WONT DIE! In fact it's been done so many times that this particular horse is now undead; even if it does die, it will still be remembered and parodied.

3. Someone comes along and suggests that AFK cloakers can't hurt you, because they are, by their very definition, AFK. No one ever lost a ship to someone who ISN'T PLAYING THE GAME.

4. Someone else comes along and points out that while the cloaker might be AFK, he might not be, and so we have Schrodinger's Hot Dropper. The cyno pilot who might be AFK... but he might not be as well, and you will only know for sure when he decloaks, points and lights his candle. (Yes, I know this isn't how the cat works)

5. Someone else comes along and suggests that you use bait and setup a TARP. Or have a defence fleet on standby. Heaven forbid you have to actually fight to defend your space.

6. A further person comes along and suggests that the problem isn't cloaking AFK in your system that you can't possibly leave ever, but that you KNOW that the person is AFK in your system... and perhaps local should be removed because free 100% accurate intel is probably not the best thing in the game and if you didn't know that the big meanie was in your system, you wouldn't be worried about leaving the undock/POS.

7. Then another person pokes their head in and complains that local is 100% NEEDED because D-Scan and probing are such bad mechanics, and IF YOU TAKE MY LOCAL AWAY IM QUITTING FOREVER AND NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY STUFF!

8. Someone asks if they can have 7's stuff.

We end up with another thread which goes on for pages and pages between complains about local, defence fleets, inability to just go next door, people who aren't playing the game but are playing the meta, lots of bickering and in the end nothing gets solved. CCP wont remove cloaking because it would mess with waaay too many things and it creates content (which is a good thing) by removing content (which is a bad thing) but they can't really think of any way to do it without a complete overhaul of the local and scanning systems.

Now that I've had this entire thread's conversation, can we just let it die? Please?


I honestly believe that somone's reaction to cloaky camping sorts out the strong from the weak. You can either welcome it as an opportunity to counter drop and get those shiny blops killmails or you fold, dock up and ask CCP for the nerf. If you are in the latter camp then maybe sov null isn't for you.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#115 - 2016-06-16 07:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
I honestly believe that somone's reaction to cloaky camping sorts out the strong from the weak. You can either welcome it as an opportunity to counter drop and get those shiny blops killmails or you fold, dock up and ask CCP for the nerf. If you are in the latter camp then maybe sov null isn't for you.


I honestly believe that people who keep ignoring the AFK part are weak in the head or raging hypocrites.

EDIT: When CCP move local in 0.0 to observatory structures I also hope that they have one that will apply the AFK flag because it will then stop lazy players from interacting with the game while asleep and at work. Because the simple question is how can you get the shiny BLOP kills when they are not even at their computer?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#116 - 2016-06-16 21:26:51 UTC
Because you rat in a carrier. You are in a fleet with others who are ratting in carriers. You have a cyno and multiple refits. You have triage on standby. If you get dropped you light your cyno and the only issue becomes how many of their blops you can tackle. It doesn't matter whether your cloaky camper is afk or not. It doesnt matter whether they are at work or asleep. If they try to blops you then good luck to them.

But as you know you would do this anyway. You would do this whether there is a cloaky camper in system with you or not. Because you never know when some random gang may turn up.

Stop being bad and blaming your lack of organisation on game mechanics.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#117 - 2016-06-16 21:48:42 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Because you rat in a carrier. You are in a fleet with others who are ratting in carriers. You have a cyno and multiple refits. You have triage on standby. If you get dropped you light your cyno and the only issue becomes how many of their blops you can tackle. It doesn't matter whether your cloaky camper is afk or not. It doesnt matter whether they are at work or asleep. If they try to blops you then good luck to them.

But as you know you would do this anyway. You would do this whether there is a cloaky camper in system with you or not. Because you never know when some random gang may turn up.

Stop being bad and blaming your lack of organisation on game mechanics.


Stop giving reasonable explanations. We should be able to AFK rat in deep null with less risk than HS!
Statfar Novi
Core Collapse Inc
#118 - 2016-06-17 09:38:17 UTC
Align
Dscan
done.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#119 - 2016-06-21 18:01:03 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Because you rat in a carrier. You are in a fleet with others who are ratting in carriers. You have a cyno and multiple refits. You have triage on standby. If you get dropped you light your cyno and the only issue becomes how many of their blops you can tackle. It doesn't matter whether your cloaky camper is afk or not. It doesnt matter whether they are at work or asleep. If they try to blops you then good luck to them.

But as you know you would do this anyway. You would do this whether there is a cloaky camper in system with you or not. Because you never know when some random gang may turn up.

Stop being bad and blaming your lack of organisation on game mechanics.


Tell me something I don't already know, having done exactly that while being camped by Razor when I was in IRC and before carriers were as fun as they are now.

You are still ignoring the AFK part, I repeat how can I kill that guy if he is AFK, how can I drop on his fleet if he is AFK, how can I kill those BLOP's if he is AFK, he cannot BLOP's me when he is asleep or at work. Many small alliances do not have all round TZ coverage and people ready to jump in at a moments notice, do you expect that they can continue to have something set up and be ready when the camper is AFK...

Bad does not come into it for me, the loser who is AFK camping should not be able to interact to that degree on small alliances with limited TZ coverage and resources while AFK. And the AFK flag is the best way as we don't adjust log off mechanisms or cloaks with what I have suggested. I want to blow them up, which I cannot do while they are asleep or at work and now with skill injectors and the like they can build an effective character so quickly with no history to know when he is really active.

Your alliance is pretty good that is true, you do very well, but I wonder just how well you would do if you had Solar next door and hungry for kills, or someone better like PL. I wonder if you would be quite "so you are bad at Eve" when you find out just how bad it can be...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
ISD Buldath
#120 - 2016-06-22 16:58:12 UTC
Quote:
23. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.


Since the Owner of the thread has decided to Wipe his First Post, I will go ahead and lock this.

~ISD Buldath

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