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Innocence Lost: Death Toll

Author
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#21 - 2016-06-16 02:49:26 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.

It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2016-06-16 02:58:03 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.

It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have.


Not to mention the Scope broadcast wars that capsuleers wage to the general public. If the baseliner public can go insane just thinking about us blowing the heck out of each other and leave debris fields the size of an asteroid belt, every baseliner in the cluster will probably be dancing around some piece of a wreck going "Ia! Ia!" for almost a decade by now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Karina Ivanovich
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2016-06-16 05:18:24 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Lord Kailethre wrote:
You seem to be projecting your own false dichotomy of innocence and guilt upon capsuleers. In a sense no one is truly innocent nor guilty, there are varying degrees. A capsuleer who 'murders' thousands of crewmen aboard a Guristas battleship is perhaps just as guilty as the pirates are, for depriving families of their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters; but the pirates themselves do the same and perhaps in destroying this ship the capsuleer has saved more lives.

You ask if we are capable of judging others or ourselves and yet you do that very thing in your initial supposition.


Ultimately, the only lives we should be held responsible for are the lives of the crew on our own ships. That other ship has her own captain who is responsible for his or her own crew. If that other ship explodes, whatever happened to the crew of that ship isn't our problem.

I am not about to start writing condolence letters for the crew of that other ship which I had shot to pieces. That's the job of that other ship's captain.


Oh, I was just pointing this out for discussion. I am quite comfortable being the monster. For those I care about I am a stalwart and trustworthy individual. For those I call foe, I will unleash all the contempt I hold for humanity onto you.

The most simple way to solve problems is death. If the problem is dead; you will live.

Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.

Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#24 - 2016-06-16 07:11:21 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.

It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have.


Yes they definitely talk about Capsuleers all the time. How many of those conversations do you remember involving snuffing out thousands of lives in 10 minutes? I just did that 4 times in an hour. They talk about us but they definitely do not understand us. You know much in the same way one can speak of a god but not understand the gods creations.

Insane would be not realizing that you have surpassed them.

Tristan
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2016-06-16 08:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.

It's only been 6 years since you were a baseliner. And you forgot already that we - excuse me, they - talk about capsuleers a lot and don't go insane? Yes, that includes thinking about the power capsuleers have.


Yes they definitely talk about Capsuleers all the time. How many of those conversations do you remember involving snuffing out thousands of lives in 10 minutes? I just did that 4 times in an hour. They talk about us but they definitely do not understand us. You know much in the same way one can speak of a god but not understand the gods creations.

Insane would be not realizing that you have surpassed them.

Tristan


They won't go insane from that at all. Look, even before Capsuleers exist, we already have warlords who happily march millions of folks into meat grinders where people die by dozens per minute. The general public won't understand why said warlords will march so many people off to their death in the name of ambition or resources or whatever but they certainly do not go mad about it.

Us Capsuleers are quite similar in that respect, except we are very much capable of causing hundreds of deaths per minute. It's not exactly that incomprehensible a scale for a baseliner to imagine. What the baseliner is not going to understand is why we thought that killing that many people at such scale is fine.

They know very well what we are. We are transhumans who cheat death and wield war machines of such terrifying power using them would have been considered a war crime by the Federation a millennial ago. Will the revelation drive them mad? Nope. It has never driven them mad. They just put us on the same level as those ruthless warlords.

By the way, I think you need to lose that God Complex.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#26 - 2016-06-16 09:28:50 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Yes they definitely talk about Capsuleers all the time. How many of those conversations do you remember involving snuffing out thousands of lives in 10 minutes? I just did that 4 times in an hour.

Plenty.
Mr. Egivand explained things well.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#27 - 2016-06-16 15:15:07 UTC
God complex, I wish. Perhaps then I would not be so scared of the things that are coming. The dark gods have already claimed an empress, and even our transhuman bodies where not enough to save her. I certainly do not have a god complex Mr Egivand, I just understand the step we as Capsuleers have taken that make us more then human. There are things far scarier then us in space.

I would be very interested with where you found your information on the activities of Capsuleers having never driven baseliners mad. I do quite a bit of recovery work for crew in the war zone, Mad would be an excellent way of describing the mind state of many Caldari Destroyer captains who just watched there warships turn into dust around them. You know once it sinks in that his government sent him to his death, and that he never really stood any chance.

TrIstan
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-06-16 15:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Tristan Valentina wrote:
God complex, I wish. Perhaps then I would not be so scared of the things that are coming. The dark gods have already claimed an empress, and even our transhuman bodies where not enough to save her. I certainly do not have a god complex Mr Egivand, I just understand the step we as Capsuleers have taken that make us more then human. There are things far scarier then us in space.

I would be very interested with where you found your information on the activities of Capsuleers having never driven baseliners mad. I do quite a bit of recovery work for crew in the war zone, Mad would be an excellent way of describing the mind state of many Caldari Destroyer captains who just watched there warships turn into dust around them. You know once it sinks in that his government sent him to his death, and that he never really stood any chance.

TrIstan


Driven made by immense trauma. Any warlord or sufficiently cruel soldier is capable of doing that to the victims. This is not something unique to Capsuleer activity. I take it you had never gone into colonies brutalised by Blood Raider baseliner soldiers before, have you?Or perhaps rescue colonists who had witnessed the decimation of their neighbours by the hands of Angel Cartel enforcers over the course of a few days in the low sec areas.

This is a story as old as mankind itself. You do not need to be a capsuleer to drive baseliners mad. You just need to be an exceptionally cruel and ruthless bastard with equally cruel and ruthless minions to do your bidding. That or a really powerful large-scale weapon. Or a number of them. Artillery, even something as primitive as a hand-held mortar, is capable of giving just about anyone on the receiving end nightmares for the rest of their lives.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2016-06-16 15:31:14 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Artillery, even something as primitive as a hand-held mortar, is capable of giving just about anyone on the receiving end nightmares for the rest of their lives.

A well applied stick would do the job.... hell, you could achieve that goal with your bare hands.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2016-06-16 15:38:04 UTC
I will also have you know that I regularly dine in the same canteen as my staff. The sight of me munching on flatbread and filling up my thermos with more coffee hasn't driven any of them mad yet.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2016-06-17 04:04:38 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:


I HATE YOU!


You overestimate my power!

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#32 - 2016-06-17 04:52:53 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I will also have you know that I regularly dine in the same canteen as my staff. The sight of me munching on flatbread and filling up my thermos with more coffee hasn't driven any of them mad yet.


Or maybe it has and you haven't noticed because your off your rock as well...

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-06-17 06:27:15 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I will also have you know that I regularly dine in the same canteen as my staff. The sight of me munching on flatbread and filling up my thermos with more coffee hasn't driven any of them mad yet.


Or maybe it has and you haven't noticed because your off your rock as well...


Maybe. I am going to make an appointment with a psychiatrist.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2016-06-18 16:17:21 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Yep to normal people we are monsters. We are the demigods who control the black endless void. We are so far above them that if they even try and contimplate our power they would go insane.

But in this world there are things that take demigods to stop. We are the monsters that humanity made to fight the monsters out here in the void. Let's just hope we are all enough monster to never lose to monsters that have yet to show themselves.

Tristan

You mean CONCORD?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-06-19 10:45:05 UTC
Morals are wrong concepts in the first place. We all are just fighting for ourselves, for what is ours, or for what we wish to make ours.

I though adore to attack these so called moralists with logic and show them that from our point of view they are in fact amoral, simply because morals aren't absolute, they are just ways we perceive things.

There is no universal good and evil, there is just conflict of interests. And those, who claim to be actual 'good' - they are only trying to hide their own misdoings and dishonorable actions, trying to convince themselves and others in what they are not.

There is though a way I myself consider things good and evil, but again, they aren't absolute, because, well, it is correct only from this point of view. And for me good people are those, who are working for others and for community. And evil people are those, who work only for themselves and for their own, personal interests.

PS.
And no, becoming 'mass murderer' and killing civilians or non-capsuleers, Ms. Ivanovich, won't make you monster or 'evil'. That will make you only inefficient for embezzlement of ammunition.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2016-06-19 13:43:53 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Morals are wrong concepts in the first place. We all are just fighting for ourselves, for what is ours, or for what we wish to make ours.

I though adore to attack these so called moralists with logic and show them that from our point of view they are in fact amoral, simply because morals aren't absolute, they are just ways we perceive things.

There is no universal good and evil, there is just conflict of interests. And those, who claim to be actual 'good' - they are only trying to hide their own misdoings and dishonorable actions, trying to convince themselves and others in what they are not.

There is though a way I myself consider things good and evil, but again, they aren't absolute, because, well, it is correct only from this point of view. And for me good people are those, who are working for others and for community. And evil people are those, who work only for themselves and for their own, personal interests.

PS.
And no, becoming 'mass murderer' and killing civilians or non-capsuleers, Ms. Ivanovich, won't make you monster or 'evil'. That will make you only inefficient for embezzlement of ammunition.




Probably the truest thing said on IGS this year.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2016-06-20 05:33:17 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Morals are wrong concepts in the first place. We all are just fighting for ourselves, for what is ours, or for what we wish to make ours.

I though adore to attack these so called moralists with logic and show them that from our point of view they are in fact amoral, simply because morals aren't absolute, they are just ways we perceive things.

There is no universal good and evil, there is just conflict of interests. And those, who claim to be actual 'good' - they are only trying to hide their own misdoings and dishonorable actions, trying to convince themselves and others in what they are not.

There is though a way I myself consider things good and evil, but again, they aren't absolute, because, well, it is correct only from this point of view. And for me good people are those, who are working for others and for community. And evil people are those, who work only for themselves and for their own, personal interests.

PS.
And no, becoming 'mass murderer' and killing civilians or non-capsuleers, Ms. Ivanovich, won't make you monster or 'evil'. That will make you only inefficient for embezzlement of ammunition.

On that we agree
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