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Crime & Punishment

 
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Plea for more than 3 minutes to kill a freighter

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Crinnfika
Doomheim
#101 - 2016-06-16 13:34:57 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Crinnfika wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Why would you even use Red Frog if Freighters where completely save in Highsec? You just load your Freighter and some (thanks to skill injectors free2play) NPC corp alt ships the stuff AFK-AP to the location. There is no opportunity cost anymore if you can get free freighter alts and zero attention is needed.

The Red Frog business model in Higshec is only alive because there is a healthy amount of ganking. It creates an environment where you may lose your stuff and paying someone to ship your stuff for a fee with a collateral is a great way to mitigate that risk. If that risk goes away, so will Red Frogs customers.

It is really quite simple. The more risk there is the more money there will be for enterprises who specialize in shipping your goods and who know how to mitigate their own risk.

Freight contracts have never been about risk or safety. Freight contracts exist for the same reason FedEx exists in the real world: Paying someone else to haul my stuff is infinitely more convenient than hauling the stuff myself.

Every person in the game has the power to haul their own goods and no you don't need a freighter either. People pay Red Frog because they don't want to have to spend the time to haul it.

I am sure that convenience is a strong driver for people to use Freighter contracts, but it isn't the only one. And in a time where you can have hauling alts on free accounts (sell accumulated SP) this reason isn't as strong as it was. If there was no risk at all and you could just AFK-AP your stuff it would be almost equally convenient to haul stuff yourself as it is to use a Freighter service, no attention is needed anymore, also it would be a lot cheaper. So even this is connected to risk.

I have heard a lot of people mentioning risk as the deciding factor of why they use Freighter services. Freighter contracts can work similar to an insurance and that is how they are often used.


Having a freighter alt only makes sense if the person needs to use a freighter on a consistent and frequent basis. For the 95% of the game that doesn't need a freighter that often it makes zero economic sense to have a freighter alt, particularly given how expensive a freighter is and how time consuming the training is.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#102 - 2016-06-16 14:01:19 UTC
Crinnfika wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Crinnfika wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Why would you even use Red Frog if Freighters where completely save in Highsec? You just load your Freighter and some (thanks to skill injectors free2play) NPC corp alt ships the stuff AFK-AP to the location. There is no opportunity cost anymore if you can get free freighter alts and zero attention is needed.

The Red Frog business model in Higshec is only alive because there is a healthy amount of ganking. It creates an environment where you may lose your stuff and paying someone to ship your stuff for a fee with a collateral is a great way to mitigate that risk. If that risk goes away, so will Red Frogs customers.

It is really quite simple. The more risk there is the more money there will be for enterprises who specialize in shipping your goods and who know how to mitigate their own risk.

Freight contracts have never been about risk or safety. Freight contracts exist for the same reason FedEx exists in the real world: Paying someone else to haul my stuff is infinitely more convenient than hauling the stuff myself.

Every person in the game has the power to haul their own goods and no you don't need a freighter either. People pay Red Frog because they don't want to have to spend the time to haul it.

I am sure that convenience is a strong driver for people to use Freighter contracts, but it isn't the only one. And in a time where you can have hauling alts on free accounts (sell accumulated SP) this reason isn't as strong as it was. If there was no risk at all and you could just AFK-AP your stuff it would be almost equally convenient to haul stuff yourself as it is to use a Freighter service, no attention is needed anymore, also it would be a lot cheaper. So even this is connected to risk.

I have heard a lot of people mentioning risk as the deciding factor of why they use Freighter services. Freighter contracts can work similar to an insurance and that is how they are often used.


Having a freighter alt only makes sense if the person needs to use a freighter on a consistent and frequent basis. For the 95% of the game that doesn't need a freighter that often it makes zero economic sense to have a freighter alt, particularly given how expensive a freighter is and how time consuming the training is.
Freighter contracts have always had safety as an integral part, as does mining. New Eden has no area, by design, that is safe. That risk is what makes hauling and mining professions in the sandbox rather than a simple exercise in solving the maximum yield/cargo once and pressing a button for reward. Eve is a Player vs. Player game, not a Player vs. boredom game and having to account for the risk that other players present is part of the core design.

You assert something that isn't true. Accounting for and mitigating risk is suppose to be an important part of hauling profession and always has been. That's why we have collateral to allow players to transfer the risk of loss to one another.

Humans are bad at estimating risk, especially of rare events. Short-sighted view like yours are probably why I can ship billions of ISK worth of cargo between the trade hubs each day for peanuts yet once or twice a month some poor hauler fails a contract of mine after being ganked and has to absorb a multi-billion ISK loss. Whenever this happens I shake my head and feel bad for them, but only for a bit until I click the 'Fail Contract' button and get a big ISK payout for my over-collateralized cargo which returns a smile to my face.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2016-06-16 14:08:22 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
and has the added complication that invincible NPCs spawn and blow you up if you wait in space for any length of time.

err faction police are not invincible.
They are to typical gank ships.

adapt or die?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#104 - 2016-06-16 15:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
code are crying a lot these days Lol


They certainly are, they want to emulate their founder Big smile

Show me on the barge where His Holiness James 315 touched you Blink


Actually I found it rather amusing that he was crying over can baiting...

And the only holy thing about James315 is his vest, and Dom try not to use that child **** reference, its not very funny...

EDIT: A little bird told me that the collateral scam is going to end with a collateral calculator which shows how far above the real value it is...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#105 - 2016-06-16 15:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
A little bird told me that the collateral scam is going to end with a collateral calculator which shows how far above the real value it is...
Collateral is a "guarantee" that you'll get paid if something goes amiss; in banking collateral for a secured loan is often worth more than the loan itself (25-50% more depending on what you want the loan for and how good your credit is). If you default, the bank gets their money back and then some by selling the collateral.

With that in mind please explain, how is over collateralization, which is very much a legitimate business practice in the real world, a scam in a virtual one?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#106 - 2016-06-16 15:37:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
A little bird told me that the collateral scam is going to end with a collateral calculator which shows how far above the real value it is...
Collateral is a "guarantee" that you'll get paid if something goes amiss; in banking collateral for a secured loan is often worth more than the loan itself (25-50% more depending on what you want the loan for and how good your credit is). If you default, the bank gets their money back and then some by selling the collateral.

With that in mind please explain, how is over collateralization, which is very much a legitimate business practice in the real world, a scam in a virtual one?


Are you making a real life comparison here, tut tut. One that is in fact totally irrelevant in terms of Courier contracts as currently no valuation of the goods carried is made, a bank is hardly going to loan an unknown amount are they? But this is going off topic, suggest you wait for it to happen first.

EDIT: The courier will at least be able to assess whether this is a real contract or not, perfect...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#107 - 2016-06-16 15:46:18 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
code are crying a lot these days Lol


They certainly are, they want to emulate their founder Big smile

Show me on the barge where His Holiness James 315 touched you Blink


Actually I found it rather amusing that he was crying over can baiting...

And the only holy thing about James315 is his vest, and Dom try not to use that child **** reference, its not very funny...

EDIT: A little bird told me that the collateral scam is going to end with a collateral calculator which shows how far above the real value it is...

I did not mention kids anywhere.
I definitely hit a very sensitive nerve of yours though.

CODE. were can baiters in the beginning... but I guess you already knew that.
That nerf had the same effect on him and other baiters than the recent watchlist changes had on mercs

Highsec is stagnant at this stage... just waiting for that final blow

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Black Pedro
Mine.
#108 - 2016-06-16 15:56:21 UTC
My contracts are all legit but over-collaterialized to cover the disruption to my industrial and trading operations. I usually try for 25-40% which compensates me for my time to re-buy all the goods lost to the hauler's carelessness. It makes hauling into a no-lose situation as you get either the goods delivered on time or a nice cash bonus.

It's not hard to build in a good cushion of extra collateral given how cheaply haulers are willing to work. It's like they don't value their time or understand the risk, or perhaps like they have some sort of brain damage to take on all that risk for next-to-no reward.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#109 - 2016-06-16 15:56:57 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
code are crying a lot these days Lol


They certainly are, they want to emulate their founder Big smile

Show me on the barge where His Holiness James 315 touched you Blink


Actually I found it rather amusing that he was crying over can baiting...

And the only holy thing about James315 is his vest, and Dom try not to use that child **** reference, its not very funny...

EDIT: A little bird told me that the collateral scam is going to end with a collateral calculator which shows how far above the real value it is...

I did not mention kids anywhere.
I definitely hit a very sensitive nerve of yours though.

CODE. were can baiters in the beginning... but I guess you already knew that.
That nerf had the same effect on him and other baiters than the recent watchlist changes had on mercs

Highsec is stagnant at this stage... just waiting for that final blow


Dom, I suggested that you don't use that FBI question, its a bit meh and makes you look a bit sad in the head, personally I think its your choice whether you want people like me to think you are meh for trying to be funny over that expression, and you know it refers to kids. I come from the old school of freedom of expression, you can say what you want, but I can sit there and think what a plonker you are for saying it, that works for me.

Yes CODE were can baiters and James315 he of the holy vest was most put out, tears were heard to have fallen from what I was told. I find that rather amusing.

In terms of war dec entities, they were mainly doing pipe and hub camping before that happened in any case, but I expect or hope that CCP create some sort of observatory structure that gives that sort of data on war targets in a constellation.

Salut mon ami!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#110 - 2016-06-16 16:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Are you making a real life comparison here, tut tut.
Yes I am, while not directly relevant to Eve it is an example of something that you've labelled as being a scam actually being a legitimate business practice in the real world.

Quote:
it's One that is in fact totally irrelevant in terms of Courier contracts as currently no valuation of the goods carried is made,
If you want a more relevant one we'll take a look at postal insurance, do you undervalue anything valuable that you send by post, or do you say that it's worth more than it is so that if something goes amiss you get the value of the posted object back + some extra for the inconvenience? In the case of the postal service the promise of collateral is provided by their insurers, the estimated value is determined by you, the sender, just as it is in Eve.

Quote:
a bank is hardly going to loan an unknown amount are they?
A courier contract collateral amount is not an unknown, it's stated clearly for all to see in the contract, if it's too rich for you then you don't take the contract.

Quote:
The courier will at least be able to assess whether this is a real contract or not, perfect...
If a courier can see the value of the goods being shipped, which in itself is open to manipulation as has been proved in the past during the FW screwup, what is to stop them breaking open any under collateralized contracts and keeping the stuff for themselves, using the collateral they pay out for failing a contract to essentially purchase the contents of the contract for under market value?

Once again, I ask you, how is a widespread and legitimate business practice in the real world a scam in Eve?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#111 - 2016-06-16 16:08:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
A courier contract collateral amount is not an unknown, it's stated clearly for all to see in the contract, if it's too rich for you then you don't take the contract.


You are trying too hard mate, when does collateral become the value of the items, silly reply, just silly...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#112 - 2016-06-16 16:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dracvlad wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
A courier contract collateral amount is not an unknown, it's stated clearly for all to see in the contract, if it's too rich for you then you don't take the contract.


You are trying too hard mate, when does collateral become the value of the items, silly reply, just silly...
You do know what collateral in terms of hauling in Eve is don't you?

It's a security deposit that covers the replacement of goods lost in transit; as such it is intrinsically linked to the "value" of the goods, said "value" often includes an inconvenience overhead and is determined by the sender.

Are you going to answer my question, namely "How is it a scam?" or are you going to prevaricate as per your usual modus operandi?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Sequester Risalo
German Corps of Engineers 17
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#113 - 2016-06-17 08:29:20 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
I realize that CCP aims to nerf highsec freighter ganking, but do they intend to end it all-together?

When the nerf to Awoxing was on the horizon, a desperate plea was made by the players and CCP had the good judgement to implement the toggle-switch, thus saving awoxing from total death.

Now, a nerf to freighter suicide ganking comes in the form of a 3-minute warp timer, and we need to try and reason with CCP to allow us more than just 3 measly minutes.

Just making it 5 minutes would make a world of difference.

I implore you, noble Devs, reconsider the practicality of recently proposed mechanics changes to bumping/warping.

Thank you.


I don't get this. Reading the code propaganda site I would assume that they always win, always. Now it seems "always" only means that they win "in favourable circumstances"? Now thats a catchy phrase:

The code wins in favourable circumstances.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#114 - 2016-06-17 13:53:40 UTC
Oh we have always won regardless of unfavorable circumstances and will continue to win regardless of how hard butthurt carebears cry for more nerfs.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#115 - 2016-06-17 14:01:38 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Oh we have always won regardless of unfavorable circumstances and will continue to win regardless of how hard butthurt carebears cry for more nerfs.


by crying for buffs?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#116 - 2016-06-17 14:16:32 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Oh we have always won regardless of unfavorable circumstances and will continue to win regardless of how hard butthurt carebears cry for more nerfs.


by crying for buffs?

Afaik CODE. never got any buffs, only nerfs so that highsec can become like Hello Kitty Online Lol

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#117 - 2016-06-17 14:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Oh we have always won regardless of unfavorable circumstances and will continue to win regardless of how hard butthurt carebears cry for more nerfs.


by crying for buffs?

Afaik CODE. never got any buffs, only nerfs so that highsec can become like Hello Kitty Online Lol


OK shall I start listing them:

Destroyer damage buff - massive affect that one because CCP took an age to adjust the mining ships tanks.
Bumping allowed by CCP aka the thread in C&P
Bowhead created
Fleet hanger in DST
Wreck EHP buff, AG shrugged and said fair one that
Ruling that Hyperdunking was allowed resulting in massive ganking campaign
Tags in low sec to enable security status to be quickly changed to positive
Skill injectors enabling gankers to create new gankers very quickly
Citadel tethering enabling gankers to sit ready in space without being shot by faction police

I am sure I missed some others, yes some of them have now been nerfed. Which you count as a nerf only.

The change to structure EHP via the DCU II was not done due to ganking but for other reasons
The Watchlist change was because of watch lists stopping major fleet fights

And this change to bumping which is long overdue because you could effectively point someone with no consequences for hours is adjusting a stupid mechanic. At the end of the day all the OP has to do is have a third account for suicide pointers and he can still ransom as the point will re-set the timer, not our fault he is too fail to do that...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#118 - 2016-06-17 15:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dom Arkaral
Dracvlad wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Oh we have always won regardless of unfavorable circumstances and will continue to win regardless of how hard butthurt carebears cry for more nerfs.


by crying for buffs?

Afaik CODE. never got any buffs, only nerfs so that highsec can become like Hello Kitty Online Lol


OK shall I start listing them:

Destroyer damage buff - massive affect that one because CCP took an age to adjust the mining ships tanks.
Bumping allowed by CCP aka the thread in C&P
Bowhead created
Fleet hanger in DST
Wreck EHP buff, AG shrugged and said fair one that
Ruling that Hyperdunking was allowed resulting in massive ganking campaign
Tags in low sec to enable security status to be quickly changed to positive
Skill injectors enabling gankers to create new gankers very quickly
Citadel tethering enabling gankers to sit ready in space without being shot by faction police

I am sure I missed some others, yes some of them have now been nerfed. Which you count as a nerf only.

The change to structure EHP via the DCU II was not done due to ganking but for other reasons
The Watchlist change was because of watch lists stopping major fleet fights

And this change to bumping which is long overdue because you could effectively point someone with no consequences for hours is adjusting a stupid mechanic. At the end of the day all the OP has to do is have a third account for suicide pointers and he can still ransom as the point will re-set the timer, not our fault he is too fail to do that...

Hyperdunking is a banable offense.
Bumping got nerfed (or is getting nerfed) to 3 minutes.
And the rest of your points affect all the player base.
Citadels are in lowsec too, and there are more -10.0 toons down there than is HS as well

None of the other points were requested by CODE. members but hey... nice try lmao
Arguments invalidated.
GG no re

Edit: corrected a typo

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#119 - 2016-06-17 15:32:37 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Oh we have always won regardless of unfavorable circumstances and will continue to win regardless of how hard butthurt carebears cry for more nerfs.


by crying for buffs?

Afaik CODE. never got any buffs, only nerfs so that highsec can become like Hello Kitty Online Lol


hasn't highsec always been hello kitty online? Lol

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#120 - 2016-06-17 15:39:01 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:

Hyperdunking is a banale offense.
Bumping got nerfed (or is getting nerfed) to 3 minutes.
And the rest of your points affect all the player base.
Citadels are in lowsec too, and there are more -10.0 toons down there than is HS as well

None of the other points were requested by CODE. members but hey... nice try lmao
Arguments invalidated.
GG no re


Oh my god that was a funny reply ShockedRollBig smile

Don't think I have the heart to pick that to pieces...


When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp