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[?] Probing CovOps and Stacking Penalties help please.
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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#1 - 2016-06-14 03:13:11 UTC
I've recently discovered a love for the voodoo arts of combat probing.

I'm wondering about Scan strengths upgrades and 'how much is enough' when you consider stacking penalties.

Here's my current fit:

[Buzzard, Probes]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Scan Acquisition Array I
Scan Pinpointing Array I
Scan Rangefinding Array I
Scan Rangefinding Array I
1MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]

Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II <- 10AU/s warp speed is awesome!
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II

Now, as I understand stacking penalties, I have:

1: 20% Sisters launcher
2: 15% Gravity rig II
3: 10% Sisters probes
4: 10% Rangefinding array
5: 10% Rangefinding array

So that last array really isn't doing a whole lot for me as I understand things.

So: Are the probes counted as a 'module' for stacking penalty calculations? I ask because I'm sorely tempted to fit a hero-scram onto this ship.

Any advice or better fit suggestions? (FYI: This 'toon is currently perfecting their scanning support skills)

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-06-14 03:39:45 UTC
I use 2 rangefinding arrays and an acquisition

I find pinpointing to be useless generally

Art of Explosions
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3 - 2016-06-14 07:38:00 UTC
I modified your fit:
[Buzzard, Scout]
Inertial Stabilizers II
Co-Processor II

Scan Acquisition Array II
Scan Pinpointing Array II
Scan Rangefinding Array II
Scan Rangefinding Array II
1MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Expanded Probe Launcher II, Combat Scanner Probe I
[empty high slot]

Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II

3,9 align time, but better scanning modules. Signature 58,4.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:

I use 2 rangefinding arrays and an acquisition

I find pinpointing to be useless generally

I just wonder what is better rangefinding or acqusition? After initial big red globe I have two dots (when occuring) closer to each other with acquisition. Rangefinding is obvious, more is better to some point, but is it faster?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#4 - 2016-06-14 08:30:49 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I modified your fit:......


Cheers.

Once the skillqueue has made the assault up heap big Mount-Scanning-Supports-To-V, I'll be 100% getting the T2 arrays. Sixteen days left on Rangefinding left then onto Acquisition and finally Pinpointing.

I'm really wondering how I fit some tackle, mayhaps even a soupcon of Tank, onto a Buzzard so it can hero tackle when required. I may well have had a nice Vargur kill the other day if my cloaky eyes had a scram. Do I go full Probe Powa with a hero scram or full Tank?

Or, am I better off fitting a Manticore for such duties, even without probe bonuses?

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:

I use 2 rangefinding arrays and an acquisition

I find pinpointing to be useless generally

I just wonder what is better rangefinding or acqusition? After initial big red globe I have two dots (when occuring) closer to each other with acquisition. Rangefinding is obvious, more is better to some point, but is it faster?


I'm assuming a typo here and you've said Acquisition when you meant Pinpointing:

I suppose this is the crux of things. At what point does diminishing returns on Rangefinding module get overshadowed by the benefits of a Pinpointing module when it comes to narrowing down a scan result?

I've found some Astrometric Acquisition is very nice to have, especially when you have 10+ sigs in a WH to probe out. In terms of PvP Combat Probing, I can't see how a faster scan is A Bad Thing(tm). Faster = Better.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#5 - 2016-06-14 08:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortlake
Acquisition is criminally neglected for the reasons you've stated.

Particular scenarios are, for example, combat probing a target in a WH where your target seeing probes on scan is really going to spoil your fun (less time in space = better), and I find it especially useful when I'm dumping through sigs to find a target in busy systems such as mission hubs.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#6 - 2016-06-14 08:58:24 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
I'm assuming a typo here and you've said Acquisition when you meant Pinpointing:

Right, I meant pinpointing.
Rangefinding mod can be replaced with rigs but scan time and deviation are boosted by modules only. I think good mix of all three stats is best. I don't do combat scanning so I have no idea what scan strenght is needed. If I do I would propably reduce the time the probes are in space (d-scan + very low AU range on probes).

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#7 - 2016-06-14 15:22:21 UTC
As mort says, The less time with probes in space the better.
With combats you want to try and nail them with one pass to avoid spooking them.
so you do as much work on dscan as you can, get as good an idea as possible,
drop probes off dscan and try as tight a scan as you dare and then pull them in the second you get the result.

I tend to go with two hyperspacials and as many nanos as i can fit,"WHEEEEEEEEEE!"

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#8 - 2016-06-15 00:18:46 UTC
so i guess all of this adds up to: Don't stick tackle on a CovOps? Just probe and hope you can punt a 'ceptor at the target?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Paranoid Loyd
#9 - 2016-06-15 00:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
so i guess all of this adds up to: Don't stick tackle on a CovOps? Just probe and hope you can punt a 'ceptor at the target?

Yeah, it stays true to "right tool for the job" philosophy, however, if you are confident in your scanning skills and find you can scan well enough without it then go for it. If you are only hunting small low sig ships it seems dumb to forego the extra scanning boost, but if you are focusing on larger ships and spare ceptors are not around it might be better to roll with the tackle. Then again Ralph's point about not spooking the target weighs heavily on the decision.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2016-06-15 04:18:30 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Now, as I understand stacking penalties, I have:

1: 20% Sisters launcher
2: 15% Gravity rig II
3: 10% Sisters probes
4: 10% Rangefinding array
5: 10% Rangefinding array

So that last array really isn't doing a whole lot for me as I understand things.

So: Are the probes counted as a 'module' for stacking penalty calculations?


Since this was never directly addressed: no. The probe itself has a strength that is then modified by skills (not penalized, obviously), ship bonus (not penalized), and modules/rigs (stacking penalized). The probe itself has 2 additional points of sensor strength over its T1 counterpart (22 versus 20); that's where the 10% comes from in this case.

As for the rest of your stacking math: what?

The sisters launcher gives you a 10% bonus, not 20%. So it's not first in the stack; that goes to the grav cap rig. Everything else is a diminishing 10% per module. Putting three total in the stack (rig plus sisters launcher plus one rangefinding array) makes good sense. Adding the second rangefinding array hits that notorious 4th module dilemma where you still notice the difference but... meh. Putting a third one on for 5 in the stack would be too much for sure.

For combat probing -- where a hit on the first pass is critical -- I'd go for the fourth sensor strength module and then double up on acquisition time. Pinpointing will really only do you good if you botched the first pass and need to narrow things down. If you're confident you won't do that.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#11 - 2016-06-15 05:33:28 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Since this was never directly addressed: no. The probe itself has a strength that is then modified by skills (not penalized, obviously), ship bonus (not penalized), and modules/rigs (stacking penalized). The probe itself has 2 additional points of sensor strength over its T1 counterpart (22 versus 20); that's where the 10% comes from in this case.


sweet, thanks mate!

Zhilia Mann wrote:
As for the rest of your stacking math: what?

hence why I asked....

Zhilia Mann wrote:
For combat probing -- where a hit on the first pass is critical -- I'd go for the fourth sensor strength module and then double up on acquisition time. Pinpointing will really only do you good if you botched the first pass and need to narrow things down. If you're confident you won't do that.

cheers, i'll give that a crack.

i'm still learning this combat probing lark, thanks for the advice all!

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#12 - 2016-06-15 07:23:21 UTC
Plus of course if you're willing to shove an AR-806 in your ear at around 25M, you can free up another slot.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#13 - 2016-06-15 08:15:20 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
Plus of course if you're willing to shove an AR-806 in your ear at around 25M, you can free up another slot.

i didn't think implants were counted for stacking penalties?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#14 - 2016-06-15 08:23:55 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Mortlake wrote:
Plus of course if you're willing to shove an AR-806 in your ear at around 25M, you can free up another slot.

i didn't think implants were counted for stacking penalties?


No. Just if you did want to free up a slot for a point for any reason.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#15 - 2016-06-15 12:37:20 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
No. Just if you did want to free up a slot for a point for any reason.


at which point we've come full circle: what's the thoughts on a scram?

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-06-15 18:26:38 UTC
hero point is always good, when you find that marauder and need to hold it for a few seconds while the sabre arrives :D

Art of Explosions