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5 drones from the start

Author
FasterThanLight
Bahama Investments
#21 - 2016-04-25 17:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FasterThanLight
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
FasterThanLight wrote:
Also one of the surest ways to prevent new players from subscribing is giving them a 4-day mandatory skill train they gotta spend twiddling their thumbs
4 days is nowt, nor are they mandatory; drone skills don't offer enough advantage to a new player to make them so.

If you want a "mandatory" skill you need to go back a few years when learning skills were a thing, they weren't mandatory as such but you were at a serious disadvantage if you didn't train at least the basic ones; moreover the training time for them was measured in weeks and sometimes months.

TL;DR Newbies have never had it better when it comes to skills, they start off with a good selection of basics and they get the most benefit from skill injectors.


4 days is nothing to me, but for a brand new player it is a long time. If a new player starts as gallente and chooses drones, it is pretty much a necessity. Like i have stated multiple times this is a balance issue and no new skills are given to starting pilots. Also if things are better than they used to be doesnt mean things couldnt be improved further.

How many bittervets does it take to change a lightbulb? It doesnt matter, bittervets like the lightbulb as it is: broken.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#22 - 2016-04-25 19:26:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
FasterThanLight wrote:
4 days is nothing to me, but for a brand new player it is a long time.
If they're waiting on the skills before doing stuff then yes it can seem like a long time, and it's the wrong way to approach Eve. However, if it's 4 day spent doing something like the epic arc while the skills train then it flies by; and by the time they get to Dagan they may well be able to field 5 drones.

Quote:
If a new player starts as gallente and chooses drones, it is pretty much a necessity.
What do you think a new player does in their first few days or weeks that requires the use of 5 drones?

Quote:
Like i have stated multiple times this is a balance issue and no new skills are given to starting pilots.
How is it a balance issue? Out of the 12 T1 racial ships that a Gallente newbie is likely to fly only 3 (25%) have a drone bonus:

  • 6 frigates to choose from, 1 has a drone bonus.
  • 2 destroyers to choose from, 1 has a drone bonus.
  • 4 cruisers to choose from, 1 has a drone bonus.


While some of those ships do have specialist roles, most are more than capable at making stuff explode.

Quote:
Also if things are better than they used to be doesnt mean things couldnt be improved further.
What you suggest wouldn't necessarily be an improvement, and given the fairly recent boost in SP that newbies have received will likely be seen as pandering to the instant gratification crowd and an instance of "won't someone think of the children"

Malcanis' Law wrote:
Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Historically we have abused the crap out of poorly thought out ideas that CCP are daft enough to implement; something to consider.

Edit: You're the guy that was asking for a market mechanic change because you made a typo aren't you? I suggest that you learn the how and the why of the way the game currently works before making any more suggestions for "improvements" to the game.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

FasterThanLight
Bahama Investments
#23 - 2016-04-25 20:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: FasterThanLight
Quote:
What do you think a new player does in their first few days or weeks that requires the use of 5 drones?

You mentioned the epic arc yourself. Currently much easier in a gun boat than in an algos or 3 drones. It is also possible to solo dagan with a gunship and crap skills, but even with drones v it would be difficult with a drone boat.

It is a balance issue because drones are essentially one of the 2 weapon systems gallente use and amarr also use it to some extent. At this point you cannot take ewar/logistic ships into account since they are not for the starter missions anyway and training for the very basics of those does not take nearly as long as drones v. Essentially the choice is between 2 weapon systems, one of which requires a lot larger initial investment while being a perfectly viable, if not the better option in the long run.

Quote:
What you suggest wouldn't necessarily be an improvement

Possibly, but my argument is that it improves game balance. I have yet to see an argument that would comprehensively explain why it would not.

Quote:
Malcanis' Law wrote:
Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Historically we have abused the crap out of poorly thought out ideas that CCP are daft enough to implement. Something to consider.

I see that this might be the case with skill injectors for example, but i cant see why this would change anything at all after a player is older than a few weeks. "This could go wrong" is a quite poor objection if nobody can even think of how it could go wrong.

Quote:
I suggest that you learn the how and the why of the way the game currently works before making any more suggestions for "improvements" to the game.

Who are you to tell me my view of the game is wrong?

How many bittervets does it take to change a lightbulb? It doesnt matter, bittervets like the lightbulb as it is: broken.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#24 - 2016-04-25 21:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
FasterThanLight wrote:
You mentioned the epic arc yourself. Currently much easier in a gun boat than in an algos or 3 drones. It is also possible to solo dagan with a gunship and crap skills, but even with drones v it would be difficult with a drone boat.
You're not meant to solo Dagan as a newbie, that's the whole reason he's so damn hard to kill when you have low SP; the mission is there to get you to shout for help in local, which you will nearly always get.

Quote:
It is a balance issue because drones are essentially one of the 2 weapon systems gallente use and amarr also use it to some extent. At this point you cannot take ewar/logistic ships into account since they are not for the starter missions anyway and training for the very basics of those does not take nearly as long as drones v. Essentially the choice is between 2 weapon systems, one of which requires a lot larger initial investment while being a perfectly viable, if not the better option in the long run.

Possibly, but my argument is that it improves game balance. I have yet to see an argument that would comprehensively explain why it would not.
When you can provide an argument that supports your suggestion beyond your opinion and "think of the children", then we shall provide counter arguments.

Quote:

I see that this might be the case with skill injectors for example, but i cant see why this would change anything at all after a player is older than a few weeks. "This could go wrong" is a quite poor objection if nobody can even think of how it could go wrong.
You know nothing Jon Snow; I can think of several ways to abuse it straight off the bat and that's just for PvE purposes, the PvP guys would come up with many many more.

Quote:
Who are you to tell me my view of the game is wrong?
Nowhere did I say that your view of the game was wrong, I suggested that you don't have enough knowledge, as is obvious by your posting, about the whys and hows of the game to be making suggestions for improvements.

Presenting an informed and well structured proposal would have gotten you a far better response than the post you started this thread with.

The nays would overwhelming win the day though, your idea is simply a variation on the SP whines of the past.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-04-25 23:16:24 UTC
FasterThanLight wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why??
train them up if you want damage increase from these additional drones.

just because something else works the other way isnt an argument. drones arent guns.

Youre wrong, mate. Drones are clearly meant to be a weapon system like any other so yes, drones are comparable to guns. Also one of the surest ways to prevent new players from subscribing is giving them a 4-day mandatory skill train they gotta spend twiddling their thumbs if they choose to use drones as a primary weapon system. This change would not have an effect on gameplay in any way after the pilots are older than a few months, but it would make a huge difference to new players.


Aside from the tristan and possibly the algos, there isn't an early enough option for players to even need 5 drones. In most situations for brand new players being able to field 3 is more than enough. By the time they're at the point where they can semi throw away cruisers will they really need a 5th drone, and by that time if that was their goal, they would have trained it.
Teddy KGB
3200
#26 - 2016-04-25 23:48:01 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
why??
train them up if you want damage increase from these additional drones.

just because something else works the other way isnt an argument. drones arent guns.


you have drone interfacing and other skills to increase damage. isn't it enough?

Idea appreciated. o/
Lugh Crow-Slave
#27 - 2016-04-26 09:35:35 UTC
I have wanted this for a while back in the day it was fine drones were a secondary thing but now this skill is s mandatory road block
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#28 - 2016-04-27 12:54:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
I have wanted this for a while back in the day it was fine drones were a secondary thing but now this skill is s mandatory road block



You know Lugh, I've liked the cut of your jib for a few years. I'm surprised at this post. I'm OK w/ you buying in to the drone meta - for a lot of players it's the right thing to do. BUT getting on board w/ this millennial and saying a 4 day train is a roadblock and hurts new player retention is just out of character for you.?!?!??

4 days to use 5 drones..... what's the next unbearable roadblock? - 6 days to get into an inty so that you can free travel null bubble camps?

What the 4 day train actually does is let the new player see and experience his dps going up as he trains for and adds additional drones to his bay. It's one of the biggest bangs for the buck as far as training time goes. Removing this joy from the new player will most certainly hurt the retention of new players more than it will help them.

Your idea wouldn't end eve, but it would definitely be a brick in the road to eve's failure.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#29 - 2016-04-27 13:03:38 UTC
..... I actually don't think that it would matter much except for Tristan pilots...

yea... Tristan pilots...

Doesn't really matter either-way. Hill isn't high enough nor the benefit good enough to bother with it.

Yaay!!!!

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-04-27 17:17:49 UTC
I think we need to go the other direction and shrink most ships' drone bays.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dani Gallar
Doomheim
#31 - 2016-06-10 07:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Gallar
My thoughts on this:

Drones is a (x1) skill, those skills are increadibly fast to train even as a new player and any player that finds 4 days of training to be 'to much' will leave EVE sooner or later anyway.

If I look at Gallente Droneship players such as myself the difference between having Drones IV (which takes about 1 day in total) and V (which takes about 5 days in total) is minor and won´t make a huge difference early on.

I think it's a good decision to not have any skills fully trained when you start because it shows a new player that it's not CRITICAL to get any skills to that level early on.

On Dagan I say use a specifically tailored gunboat destroyer (There's a Catalyst fit that absolutely murders him without much extra training) if you wanna solo but as have been said by others the whole point of him is to teach the new player that cooperation is good and exists even in EVE:s dark and hostile universe.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#32 - 2016-06-10 10:22:58 UTC
Dani Gallar wrote:
My thoughts on this:

Drones is a (x1) skill, those skills are increadibly fast to train even as a new player and any player that finds 4 days of training to be 'to much' will leave EVE sooner or later anyway.

If I look at Gallente Droneship players such as myself the difference between having Drones IV (which takes about 1 day in total) and V (which takes about 5 days in total) is minor and won´t make a huge difference early on.

I think it's a good decision to not have any skills fully trained when you start because it shows a new player that it's not CRITICAL to get any skills to that level early on.

On Dagan I say use a specifically tailored gunboat destroyer (There's a Catalyst fit that absolutely murders him without much extra training) if you wanna solo but as have been said by others the whole point of him is to teach the new player that cooperation is good and exists even in EVE:s dark and hostile universe.


That's the spirit. If we get more player like you and your zen thinking, EVE would be better of.

You have the right idea right from the beginning which is, do not train everything to 5 yet. Having a skill at level 3 or 4 is enough to get you started and whenever you know you won't be here, put the level 4 or5 in the que so they are done when you come home.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Arnst Atram
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-06-10 10:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arnst Atram
As it stands, you currently need Drones V and Light Drones V to use Tech 2 light Drones, compared to just Gunnery IV and Light Turret V for turrets. Add to that how Drones use a very obnoxious set of attributes. Personally I'd like to see CCP got further and do a full "Tiercide" on a lot of skills that present a large barrier for new players, but Drones would be a start.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#34 - 2016-06-10 12:39:50 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

4 days to use 5 drones..... what's the next unbearable roadblock? - 6 days to get into an inty so that you can free travel null bubble camps?

Name me another weapon system that a day 1 newbie (of the right race obviously) can not fit a full rack of to a frigate or destroyer.
Yes they might need PG or CPU upgrades to do it in certain cases but to get T1 Micro reactors is what.... a 14 minute train or something like that?

Frankly this is not a situation where Malcanis' law applies. The T1 drones without any support skills will not be abusable, any 'abuses' can already be done with turret ships anyway. And any Vets in a position to abuse it are in a position to wait the 4 days also.
This has been brought up many times, and every time has been a good idea, it's not demanding T2 drones for IV skills or anything like that, it's just saying 'hey, let me actually use my weapon system without training a skill to V which is meant for specialisation, not basic fitting'
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2016-06-10 18:32:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

4 days to use 5 drones..... what's the next unbearable roadblock? - 6 days to get into an inty so that you can free travel null bubble camps?

Name me another weapon system that a day 1 newbie (of the right race obviously) can not fit a full rack of to a frigate or destroyer.
Yes they might need PG or CPU upgrades to do it in certain cases but to get T1 Micro reactors is what.... a 14 minute train or something like that?

Frankly this is not a situation where Malcanis' law applies. The T1 drones without any support skills will not be abusable, any 'abuses' can already be done with turret ships anyway. And any Vets in a position to abuse it are in a position to wait the 4 days also.
This has been brought up many times, and every time has been a good idea, it's not demanding T2 drones for IV skills or anything like that, it's just saying 'hey, let me actually use my weapon system without training a skill to V which is meant for specialisation, not basic fitting'


You could always use a gun/missile boat instead of a drone one...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#36 - 2016-06-11 05:48:15 UTC
Now that you get 10k extra SP every 22 hr or so, is this over?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#37 - 2016-06-11 06:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You could always use a gun/missile boat instead of a drone one...


how about you have to train gunnery and missile operation to use more launchers and turrets Twisted

but honestly this may have been acceptable when drones were not a primary weapon system but they are now the drone skill just hasn't caught up yet.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#38 - 2016-06-11 14:36:22 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but honestly this may have been acceptable when drones were not a primary weapon system but they are now the drone skill just hasn't caught up yet.

To me this whole topic misses the point. At the very start a Tristan with three drones is reasonably well balanced against the other T1 frigates. As the characters skills increase all ships get an increase in DPS the Tristan from more drones and from support skills that make those drones better, while all the other ships get their increased DPS from better guns / missiles and support skills that make them better.

Going back to the OP giving that Tristan pilot five drones from day one unbalances the Tristan by giving it more DPS and more utility than any of the other T1 frigates. So in the end what you see as something that is useless and has no place in the game is actually the opposite, it is needed to keep this class of ships in balance as the new characters that fly them increase in skill points.
Somal Thunder
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#39 - 2016-06-11 19:32:10 UTC
Oh, you're sad that you can't use 5 hobgoblins... why don't you just use 3 hobgoblins and a valkyrie instead?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2016-06-11 22:39:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You could always use a gun/missile boat instead of a drone one...


how about you have to train gunnery and missile operation to use more launchers and turrets Twisted

but honestly this may have been acceptable when drones were not a primary weapon system but they are now the drone skill just hasn't caught up yet.


As soon as you get PG/CPU requirement for your drones...
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