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Empire or Honour?
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#61 - 2016-06-09 10:19:25 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
But the moment they start SPREADING it, it isn't part of their culture anymore, it is their offensive actions.
Just like if Amarr would not just hold slavery for themselves, but jumped into other Empires and started enslaving peoples left-right and advertising slavery everywhere.

Luckily for us, Amarr don't do it, they hold their slavery for themselves. But gallentes... well, they need to be put back into their place with shoes to their faces.

Excuse me???
The majority of slaves in the Empire are Minmatar. One third of the whole Minmatar population in New Eden is enslaved by them. That was not always true. It started with over 100 years of slave raids perpetrated by the Amarr Empire against the Minmatar, starting as soon as they discovered us. Then they escalated to full-scale efforts to enslave all Minmatar by initiating massive acts of aggression in 22480.
Excuse you!
Your low opinion of my people is known, but so is your claim that you're a logical thinker. So you should be able to recognize the deep contradictions between these plain facts of history and what you said.

There is no contradiction.

Amarr acts of agression against Minmatar are well known. But they happened about 700-800 years ago, and I don't think there is any Amarr from that time is still alive to be accounted for it.

Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#62 - 2016-06-09 10:31:27 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Amarr acts of agression against Minmatar are well known. But they happened about 700-800 years ago, and I don't think there is any Amarr from that time is still alive to be accounted for it.

Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)


I've personally intervened in and destroyed Amarrian slave-taking operations all over New Eden. Not that you're likely to care.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-06-09 14:59:33 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
You were free to do what you wish with your slaves and your titles. If you wanted to be free of them it was quite simple to be so. However, you have gone much further. You are a traitor with the blood of your former countrymen on your hands. May you be stricken from the Book of Records for your treachery.


For those who find slavery as an institution truly abhorrent, serving the empire that promotes and preserves it as an institution is not an option.

That's just a slavery....
Claiming this is the same as saying you are leaving your country and betraying all your friends because you don't like schools and want to live in place where are no schools.


What the hell are you on about? There are schools in the Republic.

Yes. There are schools in Republic and slavery in the Empire. If you still fail to comprehend this, gallentean, why I brough it about schools - they are both social constructs to educate and introduce peoples into the society. And just as slavery, school system is hated by quite a lot of people (especially by kids who fail at learning).


Not all constructs are inherently good you dolt. You judge them individually.

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that by tossing out slavery you're also tossing out schools. They are not connected in any way.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#64 - 2016-06-09 15:00:03 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Amarr acts of agression against Minmatar are well known. But they happened about 700-800 years ago, and I don't think there is any Amarr from that time is still alive to be accounted for it.

Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)


I've personally intervened in and destroyed Amarrian slave-taking operations all over New Eden. Not that you're likely to care.

She probably feels that they are justified in those operations. Also, thank you for your intervention in those matters.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2016-06-09 15:01:02 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
But the moment they start SPREADING it, it isn't part of their culture anymore, it is their offensive actions.
Just like if Amarr would not just hold slavery for themselves, but jumped into other Empires and started enslaving peoples left-right and advertising slavery everywhere.

Luckily for us, Amarr don't do it, they hold their slavery for themselves. But gallentes... well, they need to be put back into their place with shoes to their faces.

Excuse me???
The majority of slaves in the Empire are Minmatar. One third of the whole Minmatar population in New Eden is enslaved by them. That was not always true. It started with over 100 years of slave raids perpetrated by the Amarr Empire against the Minmatar, starting as soon as they discovered us. Then they escalated to full-scale efforts to enslave all Minmatar by initiating massive acts of aggression in 22480.
Excuse you!
Your low opinion of my people is known, but so is your claim that you're a logical thinker. So you should be able to recognize the deep contradictions between these plain facts of history and what you said.

There is no contradiction.

Amarr acts of agression against Minmatar are well known. But they happened about 700-800 years ago, and I don't think there is any Amarr from that time is still alive to be accounted for it.

Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)


What about the descendants of those taken into slavery 700-800 years ago? For them, it never ended. And that's quite a few people.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#66 - 2016-06-09 15:16:28 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
But the moment they start SPREADING it, it isn't part of their culture anymore, it is their offensive actions.
Just like if Amarr would not just hold slavery for themselves, but jumped into other Empires and started enslaving peoples left-right and advertising slavery everywhere.

Luckily for us, Amarr don't do it, they hold their slavery for themselves. But gallentes... well, they need to be put back into their place with shoes to their faces.

Excuse me???
The majority of slaves in the Empire are Minmatar. One third of the whole Minmatar population in New Eden is enslaved by them. That was not always true. It started with over 100 years of slave raids perpetrated by the Amarr Empire against the Minmatar, starting as soon as they discovered us. Then they escalated to full-scale efforts to enslave all Minmatar by initiating massive acts of aggression in 22480.
Excuse you!
Your low opinion of my people is known, but so is your claim that you're a logical thinker. So you should be able to recognize the deep contradictions between these plain facts of history and what you said.

There is no contradiction.

Amarr acts of agression against Minmatar are well known. But they happened about 700-800 years ago, and I don't think there is any Amarr from that time is still alive to be accounted for it.

Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)


What about the descendants of those taken into slavery 700-800 years ago? For them, it never ended. And that's quite a few people.

Let's not forget the operations Amarrians still conduct today. I spent years as a combat engineer fighting "Illegal" slave raids and helping to rebuild towns that were hit by them. As a capsuleer, I have accepted and completed many missions to blow those same raiding party's out of the sky. Funny how every last one of them seems to be Amarr Navy...

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#67 - 2016-06-09 15:49:20 UTC
.[/quote]
Let's not forget the operations Amarrians still conduct today. I spent years as a combat engineer fighting "Illegal" slave raids and helping to rebuild towns that were hit by them. As a capsuleer, I have accepted and completed many missions to blow those same raiding party's out of the sky. Funny how every last one of them seems to be Amarr Navy...[/quote]

Can confirm, raiding parties were still happening, albeit a little hush hush. Thank you for fighting to end them.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#68 - 2016-06-09 15:51:41 UTC
Just think of it as a side business for them....... A side business that their upper command willfully ignores.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#69 - 2016-06-09 16:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Tyrel Toov wrote:
She probably feels that they are justified in those operations. Also, thank you for your intervention in those matters.


You mean she'll invent some weak justification so that she can continue to pretend she's never wrong about anything.

As for intervening...

Look, slavery in the Empire is a problem that affects all of us. I appreciate that the Minmatar have the most immediate and raw grievance, but there are Caldari slaves in the Empire, and you can bet your battleship we're on the list to be Reclaimed. Toward the end of the list, perhaps, but still very much on it.

It's in the Caldari people's long-term interests therefore to see an end to slavery. We didn't sacrifice so much to secure our right to exist independent of the Federation only to be gobbled up by the Reclaiming some centuries later.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#70 - 2016-06-09 18:15:37 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:

For those who find slavery as an institution truly abhorrent, serving the empire that promotes and preserves it as an institution is not an option.

That's just a slavery....
Claiming this is the same as saying you are leaving your country and betraying all your friends because you don't like schools and want to live in place where are no schools.


What the hell are you on about? There are schools in the Republic.

Yes. There are schools in Republic and slavery in the Empire. If you still fail to comprehend this, gallentean, why I brough it about schools - they are both social constructs to educate and introduce peoples into the society. And just as slavery, school system is hated by quite a lot of people (especially by kids who fail at learning).


Not all constructs are inherently good you dolt. You judge them individually.

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that by tossing out slavery you're also tossing out schools. They are not connected in any way.

Have you ever thought that slavery saved trillions if not more lives?... But nooo, you are just like all gallenteans are too stiff-minded to even think something that contradicts your brainwashing.

And I have JUST explained that they are not connected, it was just a SIMILAR example. I don't know how you even can put your pants on with such degree of comprehension skills.

Besides, if you are going to sort out social constructs into good and evil, you know what? Go back to kindergarten and let adults talk.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#71 - 2016-06-09 18:19:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinti Vailatti
Diana Kim wrote:
Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)


Um...what's that line you like using? "Are you a liar, or just stupid?"

Amarr totally engages in slave taking missions! And not just Matari!

They're not as public as they once were. And the war in the Bleak Lands or along the Khanid Marches are the prime hunting grounds.

And guess what Commander Skippy? Since you're their ally, you're morally complicit. How awesome is that? Want me to sell you some nice Gallente slaves that you can call your own?


*sigh

Sorry for the derailment OP. Speaking from the former slave/Matari point of view, you're doing the right thing. Good luck, God bless.

“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”
bardghost Isu
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2016-06-09 18:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: bardghost Isu
I would like to make a point here without taking sides, but instead to state a belief I have always held.

Freedom is not real, It is a false illusion presented to us to make us feel like we have control over ourselves.

At the end of the day if freedom were true then why would -

We have to work for a place to live and food to eat ?

Assign ourselves to one of many cultural groups ? Why are we outcasts if we do not do this ?

Have the governments and authorities constantly watching over our shoulders ?

And ultimately be told we are not aloud to do something because it doesn't fit with traditions ?

Freedom is just and illusion, Ultimately we are all slaves like those the amarrians have but we are led on false beliefs that we are free.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-06-09 19:19:10 UTC
bardghost Isu wrote:

At the end of the day if freedom were true then why would -

We have to work for a place to live and food to eat ?
.


This is something most children understand and I don't have the patience to explain reality to a hippie.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#74 - 2016-06-09 20:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Jason Galente wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
At least there they get to choose if they stay or not. It's far better than being in the hands of the Amarr, they have control over their own fate now. If they die in that citadel then they died free to make that choice, same as any other civilian who lives there.


"At least they're able to choose." Yes? And? Is this supposed to be something good just by its own virtue?


I see you're one of those very rare capsuleers that is completely lacking in empathy. So I'll make this easy for you.

Do you like your own ability to choose? How would you feel if it was taken from you? Pretty ****, eh? Same goes for everyone. It's a universal virtue, which is about the most objective a virtue can get.


Thanks for the assumption, but I already know what it's like to live without it considering I was born without. It's not some magical component that you can sprinkle on a life to make it suddenly better. I've not found a free life to be all that better than a chained one. I know that people who have known nothing but freedom can't imagine ever being able to live without it, but there's trillions who get by just fine.

Say what you want about my empathy. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Anataine Deva
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2016-06-09 20:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Anataine Deva
bardghost Isu wrote:
...Freedom is not real, It is a false illusion presented to us to make us feel like we have control over ourselves...
There is a difference between being bound to the laws of nature and other creatures with a gods complex. The freedom to decide to breathe, being part of a society, walking the left or the right path, or being someone's puppet in a game as you have chosen for yourself.

Give The BIG Lottery a try (it's conform with the EULA) and me your Fedos!
bardghost Isu
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2016-06-09 21:11:09 UTC
Anataine Deva wrote:
bardghost Isu wrote:
...Freedom is not real, It is a false illusion presented to us to make us feel like we have control over ourselves...
There is a difference between being bound to the laws of nature and other creatures with a gods complex. The freedom to decide to breathe, being part of a society, walking the left or the right path, or being someone's puppy in a game as you have chosen for yourself.


Being part of what society ? one where you work for those who have a lot of cash to spare, Sounds awfully a lot like slavery to me, just under the impression that you have freedoms. Sure you can do more than if you were a slave, but at the end of the day you still serve someone above you.
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#77 - 2016-06-09 21:13:24 UTC
To all of you who say freedom is not real or that it does not matter I challenge you to go to sanshas nation and let them enslave you. I imagine many of you would never do this which proves you value whatever freedom you have.
bardghost Isu
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2016-06-09 21:14:12 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
bardghost Isu wrote:

At the end of the day if freedom were true then why would -

We have to work for a place to live and food to eat ?
.


This is something most children understand and I don't have the patience to explain reality to a hippie.



Its not that I do not understand it, And not that I'm a hippie.

But having to work for someone with more power than you is an awful lot like slavery, Its just that little bit nicer.

At the end of the day you still have to work to get anywhere. I'm not saying I have a problem with it, I'm just saying they are 2 sides of the same coin.
bardghost Isu
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2016-06-09 21:19:32 UTC
Aurum Exodus wrote:
To all of you who say freedom is not real or that it does not matter I challenge you to go to sanshas nation and let them enslave you. I imagine many of you would never do this which proves you value whatever freedom you have.



That's not my point bud, No-one sane would be willing to go and let Mr. kuvakei enslave them.

However they are willing to "Work" for people who have more power and money than them.

I'm not denying that you are more free, But in my mind freedom itself is still an illusion. As I have just said seconds ago in response to someone else, Its 2 sides of the same coin. One is a brutal from of slavery you would not want to be part of, The other is one we are willing to accept because it at least feels like we are free (And we are closer to than the first.

However to be truly free, you would need to be in full control of your life and everything you have.
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#80 - 2016-06-09 22:50:05 UTC
Ever been an actual slave, Mr. Isu? If not, sit down and shut the **** up.