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Empire or Honour?
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Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-06-08 16:28:35 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

Oh, and I hope you are pleased with yourself, sending those slaves to a capsuleer citadel. Let us know how long they live before it gets destroyed in some petty capsuleer war. Don't act like sending those people to capsuleers is better than where they were. Capsuleers are monsters in their own right.


Horde has more citadels than anyone and we haven't lost one yet. We have nearly 10,000 capsuleers defending them.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-06-08 16:33:16 UTC
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
A lot of people think that honor is whatever they want honor to be. That "being right with yourself" is honor, that acting in a way you personally consider good is 'honorable'. Honor is upholding your cause despite the difficulties, doing things you don't want to do because it is your duty, and keeping your word. Honor often means doing things you dislike, because you are sworn to something greater than yourself.

There's nothing honorable about treason and infidelity. Those things are the very definition of dishonorable. Call it a better path if you want, but it is not honor that you are upholding.

Oh, and I hope you are pleased with yourself, sending those slaves to a capsuleer citadel. Let us know how long they live before it gets destroyed in some petty capsuleer war. Don't act like sending those people to capsuleers is better than where they were. Capsuleers are monsters in their own right.


We are monsters true enough. All of us are. And space is the bed we hide under, for without having a place to call home, we would engulf the world's entire.


Speak for yourself and yourself only.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#23 - 2016-06-08 16:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Tyrel Toov wrote:
At least there they get to choose if they stay or not. It's far better than being in the hands of the Amarr, they have control over their own fate now. If they die in that citadel then they died free to make that choice, same as any other civilian who lives there.


"At least they're able to choose." Yes? And? Is this supposed to be something good just by its own virtue? You can have a good life without freedom, and a bad life with it. I don't understand the sentiment that "freedom" is good just because it's freedom. And frankly, true freedom is very rare--and often results in evil, unstable people.

Most of those people? They're going to stay working on that citadel because that's where they've been put. They have no reason to leave. Slaves are raised to expect others to plan out our lives for us. Freedom doesn't much change that.
Anataine Deva
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-06-08 16:56:25 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
"At least they're able to choose." Yes? And? Is this supposed to be something good just by its own virtue? You can have a good life without freedom, and a bad life with it...
Yes it is. If you don't think so then you can be my slave. I can take your burden of being free from you.

Give The BIG Lottery a try (it's conform with the EULA) and me your Fedos!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-06-08 16:59:24 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
You were free to do what you wish with your slaves and your titles. If you wanted to be free of them it was quite simple to be so. However, you have gone much further. You are a traitor with the blood of your former countrymen on your hands. May you be stricken from the Book of Records for your treachery.


For those who find slavery as an institution truly abhorrent, serving the empire that promotes and preserves it as an institution is not an option.

That's just a slavery....
Claiming this is the same as saying you are leaving your country and betraying all your friends because you don't like schools and want to live in place where are no schools.

Besides that abhorrence to cultural habits of your own country and people, especially if you lived among them, makes you just an ungrateful swine.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#26 - 2016-06-08 17:01:02 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
At least there they get to choose if they stay or not. It's far better than being in the hands of the Amarr, they have control over their own fate now. If they die in that citadel then they died free to make that choice, same as any other civilian who lives there.


"At least they're able to choose." Yes? And? Is this supposed to be something good just by its own virtue? You can have a good life without freedom, and a bad life with it. I don't understand the sentiment that "freedom" is good just because it's freedom. And frankly, true freedom is very rare--and often results in evil, unstable people.

Most of those people? They're going to stay working on that citadel because that's where they've been put. They have no reason to leave. Slaves are raised to expect others to plan out our lives for us. Freedom doesn't much change that.

Allow me to rephrase. They're free, deal with it.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-06-08 17:04:23 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
A lot of people think that honor is whatever they want honor to be. That "being right with yourself" is honor, that acting in a way you personally consider good is 'honorable'. Honor is upholding your cause despite the difficulties, doing things you don't want to do because it is your duty, and keeping your word. Honor often means doing things you dislike, because you are sworn to something greater than yourself.

There's nothing honorable about treason and infidelity. Those things are the very definition of dishonorable. Call it a better path if you want, but it is not honor that you are upholding.

Oh, and I hope you are pleased with yourself, sending those slaves to a capsuleer citadel. Let us know how long they live before it gets destroyed in some petty capsuleer war. Don't act like sending those people to capsuleers is better than where they were. Capsuleers are monsters in their own right.

Thank you, these are the great words.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#28 - 2016-06-08 17:05:43 UTC
I'd recommend hearing Dread Kin out. She's not wrong. Freed slaves take a great deal of work and treatment if you expect them to gain anything resembling ordinary or healthy lives. If that's not something you're willing and able to provide, I suggest leaving it to those with experience and resources to do so.
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#29 - 2016-06-08 17:26:54 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I suggest leaving it to those with experience and resources to do so.


If I'm remembering correctly, thats exactly what he did.

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#30 - 2016-06-08 19:37:56 UTC
Solu Terona wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly, thats exactly what he did.

So his Horde has years of experience dealing with the care, well-being and relocation of the newly freed?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#31 - 2016-06-08 20:08:25 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Solu Terona wrote:
If I'm remembering correctly, thats exactly what he did.

So his Horde has years of experience dealing with the care, well-being and relocation of the newly freed?

In my experience, the null empires are exceedingly good at rehabilitating those the empires have screwed up

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#32 - 2016-06-09 00:00:52 UTC
Ok so, at first I decided that I was not going to respond to much because I figured that Amarr Empire would rage at me for being a traitor so I would not surprised when they did rage at me. However I think some of the stuff fbeing hurled at me is unfair, so I am going to address it.

1st: I did not force my slaves to do anything, I told them that I would arrange transport for them to anywhere, about eleven thousand wanted to go to the republic, so I arranged it. About a thousand wanted to go to the federation for whatever reason so I arranged that to. A few hundred have become fervent in the Amarrian religion, and they are staying in the empire. Some went off on their own, and I do not know where they went. A handful I was close to are staying with me in paid positions on my staff. Most of them liked the idea of working on a citadel, it is a new industry and they will be pioneers in that field. They will be part of something, they liked this. They were not forced to go, and Pandemic Horde offered them great salaries, 3 meals a deal, housing, everything they need. Plus families can stay together this way. They know they can leave any time they want. Problem solved, 80,000 slaves freed, trillions more to go.

2nd: If you read my original broadcast, I essentially called the Amarr Empire a facade, I called the empress a tyrant basically, and I questioned God. Any one of these 3 things can get you in major trouble with the MIO, but I insulted Empress, Country, and God, so yeah, please explain to me how I could have stayed in the Amarr Empire? I get it you guys are mad I joined the republic, but there are 4 factions, Amarr which I would have been on their hit-list regardless of joining the republic, Caldari; freinds of amarr so no point going there, Gallente; I honestly thought about going there for a second, then finally the Republic; with whom I am making a new home. So, pretending for a second I did not join the republic, and I was currently a free agent, would the major amarrian groups accept me given that I have insulted their Empire and their God? s. Would PIE accept a heretic like me into their midst? How about CVA? Please honestly answer me on this.

3rd: That I am not honorable because I left and am a traitor and an infidel. Ok sure I defected, so I am a traitor to the Amarrian cause, I get that. How am I un-honorable? I gave up everything I have worked for my whole life on the principal that I believe that Imperial Tyranny needs to come to an end. The easy thing here would be to continue to live on my estate getting rich off fof the backs of slaves. Instead I have decided that people need freedom, and I will fight for that cause. How am I unhonorable for this? If I left the Amarr for riches or for a higher station in a different faction, that would be unhonorable because I would be leaving for material gain. In this case, I left to help spread freedom, and selffishly to cleanse my soul, because I feel so ashamed to have been a slave holder all these years. More much suffering have I caused? I will never be able to make up for it, but I will do my best to try.


BTW; I was scared that since I am an ex Amarr Loyalist and an ex-slave holder I would have a hard time fitting into the Republic. I imagined that alot of people would have a hard time trusting me and that many would just see me as a slaver. How wrong I was, I am being treated incredibly well, I am amazed at how beautiful this culture is, if only I stopped to appreciate it sooner.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-06-09 00:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Aurum Exodus wrote:

2nd: If you read my original broadcast, I essentially called the Amarr Empire a facade, I called the empress a tyrant basically, and I questioned God. Any one of these 3 things can get you in major trouble with the MIO, but I insulted Empress, Country, and God, so yeah, please explain to me how I could have stayed in the Amarr Empire? I get it you guys are mad I joined the republic, but there are 4 factions, Amarr which I would have been on their hit-list regardless of joining the republic, Caldari; freinds of amarr so no point going there, Gallente; I honestly thought about going there for a second, then finally the Republic; with whom I am making a new home.

IF you would have and choose HONOR instead of treason, you would return to the Amarr Empire to take punishment for your words. Yes, you would be demoted, yes, you would be punished, maybe by very displeasant ways. But enduring these punishments you would keep your honor, if you kept your chin up and understand what these punishment were issued you for.

Added: Also, Minmatars are those, who have started the war with the Empire and CONCORD. They came into Empire with weapons, killing and kidnapping peoples. And now you decided to join those, who were killing your former friends and families of your former friends. Well done? I could understand treason if you was asked to attack some peoples for nothing and you decided to play twisted moral card and save them from oppression of your nation. But in this case your nation was oppressed by minmatars, and you ran to them... What was you thinking with, making such a choice? Somebody attacks you and you join them... What a disgrace.

Aurum Exodus wrote:

3rd: That I am not honorable because I left and am a traitor and an infidel. Ok sure I defected, so I am a traitor to the Amarrian cause, I get that. How am I un-honorable?

Those who commit treason lose all their honor. I don't know about being 'infidel', I don't judge people by their beliefs and convictions. But your actions, specifically treason, is the most dishonorable thing you could have done.

Aurum Exodus wrote:
I gave up everything I have worked for my whole life...

Including your honor.

Aurum Exodus wrote:
on the principal that I believe that Imperial Tyranny needs to come to an end. The easy thing here would be to continue to live on my estate getting rich off fof the backs of slaves. Instead I have decided that people need freedom, and I will fight for that cause. How am I unhonorable for this?

First, the whole fact of fighting for chaos is disgraceful. No, it isn't dishonorable, just disgraceful.
And second, if you still don't understand how you lost your honor, I will repeat it one more time: for your betrayal. Concepts of straighforward treason and honor are not compatible.

Aurum Exodus wrote:

If I left the Amarr for riches or for a higher station in a different faction, that would be unhonorable because I would be leaving for material gain. In this case, I left to help spread freedom, and selffishly to cleanse my soul, because I feel so ashamed to have been a slave holder all these years. More much suffering have I caused? I will never be able to make up for it, but I will do my best to try.

Honor is determined not by your reasons for your actions, but by your actions themselves. It doesn't matter, if you commit honorable deed for material gain, or to help someone, or because of your duty, it will remain a honorable deed. Just as dishonorable deed will remain dishonorable disregarding if you would do it for material gain, because of your duty or because you wanted to help someone.

And you "left to spread chaos"?! Do you realize how disgusting and terrible it sounds. If you want to spread freedom, you have lost not only honor, but your mind as well. Spreading freedom is offensive action, bringing nothing except death and destruction. If you lost your honor for that reason... well, your place shall be in asylum, not among normal peoples. Because normal people work hard together to build something great, and people like you just come to destroy it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#34 - 2016-06-09 00:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tristan Valentina
This seems to have a lot to do with honor. Something we capsuleers really like to talk about. Slavery has been a topic of great interest to me lately so I thought I might give my two cents here.

Honor is for the dead. It is something we as capsuleers give up in the journey to being demigods.

Slavery is a social contract, if it's participants are amoral then it is amoral.

Perhaps Amarr who feel so strongly about slavery should stop grand standing in the IGS and actually do something about it. "The Villore Assembly" has a nice model for this kind of discussion. Perhaps democracy won't work for the Amarr but it would be nice to hear a combined voice on these issues instead of the ravings of mad men.


Tristan
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-06-09 00:42:38 UTC
Slavery might be inefficient and troublesome, but first of all, anyone talking about Amarr slavery should keep in mind that it is firstly their own cultural tradition besides being just a social contract. And if they haven't removed it, it means they don't consider it 'amoral'.

You know what is really amoral? Really amoral is calling slavery amoral, if you are not active member of the Empire.

And yes, Mr. Exodus. Since you have left the Empire, if you will call their slavery amoral you will be amoral as well, because internal Amarr affairs are not your business anymore. You could have said about slavery while you was loyal to the Empire, you was part of it. Now you are just a dishonorable outsider, and your attack on slavery will be just a stupid bullying of the Empire.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#36 - 2016-06-09 00:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tristan Valentina
Diana I did not call Slavery amoral, I said amoral people can practice it. I am sure there are a few amoral Amarr out there in the same way that their are amoral Gallente.

I have considereal slavery for a fee people close to me as it keeps them much safer, and protected then a life without structure. It is a very bad idea to destroy a capsuleers property, we hold very long grudges. I value freedom of thought, and of action so I would like to believe that I would expect that from my treatment of slaves.

If the Empire can't take a few bullies then maybe it needs to grow a spine.

Slavery has nothing to do with honor. Honor is for the dead, and the dead can't socialize.

Other then the Honor stuff I think you and me might agree on these things Diana. As much as that pains me.

Tristan
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#37 - 2016-06-09 00:56:46 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Slavery might be inefficient and troublesome, but first of all, anyone talking about Amarr slavery should keep in mind that it is firstly their own cultural tradition besides being just a social contract. And if they haven't removed it, it means they don't consider it 'amoral'.

You know what is really amoral? Really amoral is calling slavery amoral, if you are not active member of the Empire.

The love and spreading of freedom is part of the gallante culture. Should we ignore that as well? Their attacks aren't amoral under your logic, after all the only person voicing here have been caldari, not Gallante.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#38 - 2016-06-09 00:59:07 UTC
Aurum Exodus wrote:
3rd: That I am not honorable because I left and am a traitor and an infidel. Ok sure I defected, so I am a traitor to the Amarrian cause, I get that. How am I un-honorable? I gave up everything I have worked for my whole life on the principal that I believe that Imperial Tyranny needs to come to an end. The easy thing here would be to continue to live on my estate getting rich off fof the backs of slaves. Instead I have decided that people need freedom, and I will fight for that cause. How am I unhonorable for this? If I left the Amarr for riches or for a higher station in a different faction, that would be unhonorable because I would be leaving for material gain. In this case, I left to help spread freedom, and selffishly to cleanse my soul, because I feel so ashamed to have been a slave holder all these years. More much suffering have I caused? I will never be able to make up for it, but I will do my best to try.


Because honor isn't "doing what you feel is right."

"I defected and am a traitor. How am I dishonorable?" You answered your own question. You can't both be a traitor while also being honorable. The two are mutually incompatible. It doesn't matter if you think you're serving the wrong master. Honor means you stay with that master even when you believe they're wrong, because you are oathbound to them.

You can certainly believe you've done the right thing. But you can't call yourself honorable for doing it when it required you to betray people who had put their faith and respect in you. If you were a Holder, then you betrayed your family, by blackening their lineage. You betrayed your liege lord, who had invested in your family the lands and titles that you held in fealty. You betrayed your nation, whose people are now under threat from you. And you betrayed your God.

If you can live with yourself for that, if you truly believe it's the right decision, then by all means, go ahead. But it's not honor.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-06-09 01:01:39 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Slavery might be inefficient and troublesome, but first of all, anyone talking about Amarr slavery should keep in mind that it is firstly their own cultural tradition besides being just a social contract. And if they haven't removed it, it means they don't consider it 'amoral'.

You know what is really amoral? Really amoral is calling slavery amoral, if you are not active member of the Empire.

The love and spreading of freedom is part of the gallante culture. Should we ignore that as well? Their attacks aren't amoral under your logic, after all the only person voicing here have been caldari, not Gallante.

If they love it, they can do it inside their federation as much as they want.

But the moment they start SPREADING it, it isn't part of their culture anymore, it is their offensive actions.
Just like if Amarr would not just hold slavery for themselves, but jumped into other Empires and started enslaving peoples left-right and advertising slavery everywhere.

Luckily for us, Amarr don't do it, they hold their slavery for themselves. But gallentes... well, they need to be put back into their place with shoes to their faces.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#40 - 2016-06-09 01:09:58 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Slavery might be inefficient and troublesome, but first of all, anyone talking about Amarr slavery should keep in mind that it is firstly their own cultural tradition besides being just a social contract. And if they haven't removed it, it means they don't consider it 'amoral'.

You know what is really amoral? Really amoral is calling slavery amoral, if you are not active member of the Empire.

The love and spreading of freedom is part of the gallante culture. Should we ignore that as well? Their attacks aren't amoral under your logic, after all the only person voicing here have been caldari, not Gallante.

If they love it, they can do it inside their federation as much as they want.

But the moment they start SPREADING it, it isn't part of their culture anymore, it is their offensive actions.
Just like if Amarr would not just hold slavery for themselves, but jumped into other Empires and started enslaving peoples left-right and advertising slavery everywhere.

Luckily for us, Amarr don't do it, they hold their slavery for themselves. But gallentes... well, they need to be put back into their place with shoes to their faces.

Hmm, makes sense...