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CCP Kill AFKING-Summer Expansion 2012 Campaign
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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-01-15 01:21:10 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
We are just being trolled by 12 year olds who cannot seem to link to their "other thread" when asked, and cannot even quote responses properly.

Try crapping in one hand and wishing in the another that CCP will pay any attention to you and see which hand fills-up faster.



Comments like these are not helpful. Please, let's keep this discussion civil.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#142 - 2012-01-15 01:22:15 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Clementina wrote:
I know how to play this game quite well met worst.

Suppose Alice is in one of your systems AFK in a covert ops frigate, she says in local 'AFK be back later', Then goes to sleep for 8 hours, the goes to work for another 8 hours. During that time a large botting operation doesn't function because they don't know if Alice is AFK or not.

At the same time Bob is in a Tengu with a covert ops reconfiguration. He plays for 4 hours. First he gathers intel on your mining op and then relays that to your enemies who then come disrupt it, then he goes and ganks someone ratting, and after that he jumps to another system and cynos dozens of supercapitals on top of your fleet that was just forming. Tired, he flies to a safespot and logs off.

Alice was AFK for 16 hours
Bob was playing hard for 4 hours.
Who did more damage? When you can answer that, you can see why your whining about AFK cloakers looks so stupid to everyone else.

This was a really good post that illustrates my perspective very well. Wonderful use of realistic examples!


Broken Logic?
ALice and bob can bee the same person you know 16 28 72 hours afk come back , whreak havoc afk again,System frozen forever ....
Aslo, how BOTs came back to the discussion?
Aslo what if the miners, are some times of day more than teh Pve/pvpers that provide ?They mast stop playing?

Bots come back into the discussion because bots, their designers knowing that they are not combat capable and cannot react quickly to dangerous situations, will simply not do their gainful activity when local is not safe; in other words, when local has a neutral or red, be he AFK or otherwise, cloaked or otherwise, the bot will either log off or go to a safe spot and cloak. The implication that the poster is making is that the only people who really need to worry about AFK cloakers are those people who run bots, because their income from bot mining or bot ratting will be significantly hampered. I personally agree with that perspective, because a real player can simply make sure that his ship is always aligned to something while he is mining or ratting—a safe spot, a stargate, a station, or whatever. So long as the real player is actively at the keys and watching his overview, he will be able to see a ship uncloak and hit the "Warp" button to escape faster than the uncloaking ship can target him, due to the targeting delay penalty imposed by cloaking devices compounded by the scan resolution-versus-signature radius of the two ships.

In short, so long as you are not yourself AFK or inattentive you have nothing to fear from an AFK cloaker.


Exept if i Was a miner with no backup so i forcefully log.And lets go to the Cyno mechanic...
Alara IonStorm
#143 - 2012-01-15 01:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Tippia wrote:
Maybe. Depends on what you consider the problem with those mechanics to be. It would completely remove AFK cloaking, though and as long as people define it in those terms, it is the ultimate solution.

I define it as Cloaked Camping personally. I would prefer more D-Scan Games to an all encompassing list that can give more information then current but less depending on your position.

Quote:
It would also break cloaking, and completely ruin W-space.

Break Cloaking as you see it but not break stealth. I do not see how it would break Wormhole Space which would still be without Local and Static entrances while having system effects for dynamic gameplay. Perhaps it would change but not break.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#144 - 2012-01-15 01:24:16 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"

Truth!
If you're constantly aligned (like you should be), then even a Recon uncloaking beside you will not be able to tackle you.


It has been said it a thousand times, this isn't about ship loss, never was, never will be. It's about PvE and ISK grind down time. One guy can't beat the Falcon, more show up and it cloaks and goes AFK. Unless you want to group grind the garbage anoms that do well to make enough ISK for one person it's a no go. Everyone can kite the issue but it doesn't change the problem.

I've done my share of AFK cloaking. I did it to be an *******, plain and simple.

OP, you put this up on a Saturday night? Why?
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-01-15 01:24:24 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"

Truth!
If you're constantly aligned (like you should be), then even a Recon uncloaking beside you will not be able to tackle you.


Oh realy?How now picture that with a carrier or a noob hulk pilot...

Any ship, if it is fully aligned and at the appropriate speed, will warp instantly once the "Warp" button is clicked.

I grant you that there exists the possibility that the AFK cloaker will uncloak right beside you during the span of time between when you arrive on grid and when you have reached full alignment and speed, but that still leaves the presumably AFK cloaker a narrow window of about 10 seconds—after taking into account his own targeting delay penalty and scan resolution—to realize that you are there, uncloak and tackle you. I will also point out that this narrow window of opportunity hinges on a stupendous amount of chance and circumstance, because he would pretty much have to be already waiting at the anomaly or belt prior to your arrival for this to work, presuming that you align as soon as you land.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-01-15 01:28:26 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Clementina wrote:
I know how to play this game quite well met worst.

Suppose Alice is in one of your systems AFK in a covert ops frigate, she says in local 'AFK be back later', Then goes to sleep for 8 hours, the goes to work for another 8 hours. During that time a large botting operation doesn't function because they don't know if Alice is AFK or not.

At the same time Bob is in a Tengu with a covert ops reconfiguration. He plays for 4 hours. First he gathers intel on your mining op and then relays that to your enemies who then come disrupt it, then he goes and ganks someone ratting, and after that he jumps to another system and cynos dozens of supercapitals on top of your fleet that was just forming. Tired, he flies to a safespot and logs off.

Alice was AFK for 16 hours
Bob was playing hard for 4 hours.
Who did more damage? When you can answer that, you can see why your whining about AFK cloakers looks so stupid to everyone else.

This was a really good post that illustrates my perspective very well. Wonderful use of realistic examples!


Broken Logic?
ALice and bob can bee the same person you know 16 28 72 hours afk come back , whreak havoc afk again,System frozen forever ....
Aslo, how BOTs came back to the discussion?
Aslo what if the miners, are some times of day more than teh Pve/pvpers that provide ?They mast stop playing?

Bots come back into the discussion because bots, their designers knowing that they are not combat capable and cannot react quickly to dangerous situations, will simply not do their gainful activity when local is not safe; in other words, when local has a neutral or red, be he AFK or otherwise, cloaked or otherwise, the bot will either log off or go to a safe spot and cloak. The implication that the poster is making is that the only people who really need to worry about AFK cloakers are those people who run bots, because their income from bot mining or bot ratting will be significantly hampered. I personally agree with that perspective, because a real player can simply make sure that his ship is always aligned to something while he is mining or ratting—a safe spot, a stargate, a station, or whatever. So long as the real player is actively at the keys and watching his overview, he will be able to see a ship uncloak and hit the "Warp" button to escape faster than the uncloaking ship can target him, due to the targeting delay penalty imposed by cloaking devices compounded by the scan resolution-versus-signature radius of the two ships.

In short, so long as you are not yourself AFK or inattentive you have nothing to fear from an AFK cloaker.


Exept if i Was a miner with no backup so i forcefully log.And lets go to the Cyno mechanic...

Miners can also align to celestial objects; they just have to constantly switch which object is their target for alignment, to stay in range of their strip miners. Seeing as strip miners have a 10km range and a hulk goes less than 100m/s, that means you need to change directions every three minutes or so. Is that asking so much of you?

As for the cyno mechanic, I don't see your problem. If a ship uncloaks beside you and lights a cyno at the same time that you hit the Warp button, you will be in warp and gone before any of his companions can load the session change; then, again, is the question of latency, and the scan resolution for each of the ships that came through the cyno. The long and short of it, no matter what you say on the matter, is that you can press "Warp," and escape, if you are prepared.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#147 - 2012-01-15 01:28:45 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Morganta wrote:
btw I've spent the last 4 hours cloaked up in a system in low sec reading and posting to these terrible threads

was I AFK?


Yup....



and how do you figure
I'm in space, in a ship, using the ingame browser, posting to garbage threads on one screen and watching local on the other

thats about as ATK as it gets.

your whole argument is null and void, since you don't even know what AFK is
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#148 - 2012-01-15 01:29:46 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Ghost of Truth wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"

Truth!
If you're constantly aligned (like you should be), then even a Recon uncloaking beside you will not be able to tackle you.


Oh realy?How now picture that with a carrier or a noob hulk pilot...

Any ship, if it is fully aligned and at the appropriate speed, will warp instantly once the "Warp" button is clicked.

I grant you that there exists the possibility that the AFK cloaker will uncloak right beside you during the span of time between when you arrive on grid and when you have reached full alignment and speed, but that still leaves the presumably AFK cloaker a narrow window of about 10 seconds—after taking into account his own targeting delay penalty and scan resolution—to realize that you are there, uncloak and tackle you. I will also point out that this narrow window of opportunity hinges on a stupendous amount of chance and circumstance, because he would pretty much have to be already waiting at the anomaly or belt prior to your arrival for this to work, presuming that you align as soon as you land.



Thats the problem right there....he can waiti in a anomaly , gate or whatever FOREVER!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#149 - 2012-01-15 01:29:50 UTC
Cloaking is fine and balanced. AFKing in the terms of this argument, is only viable due to local. If a package of changes were made to remove locals instant intel, then maybe a change to cloaking could be considered in that package. Any changes to cloaking, should also take WH space into account.

But as it remains AFKing is a perfectly viable tactic, that requires the same effort as gaining intel from local. The difference is, the effects of psychological warfare are not a guarantee, unlike locals instant intel.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-01-15 01:30:02 UTC
Ocih wrote:

I've done my share of AFK cloaking. I did it to be an *******, plain and simple.

I've done my share of suicide ganking. I did it to be an *******, plain and simple.

I don't see any problem with either mechanic. This is EVE. HTFU.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Alara IonStorm
#151 - 2012-01-15 01:30:35 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:

Comments like these are not helpful. Please, let's keep this discussion civil.

Sources close to the Trolls have said negotiations have broken down. Heavy fighting has broken out between pages 6-8 over Age, Experience and KB History. Alt accusations are flying on both sides and at least 3 You must be a X in RL Bombs have been dropped so far.

Experts say fighting may continue into page 20+ unless the Negotiations see a shift.

This is Alara IonStorm in GD reporting.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-01-15 01:31:20 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"

This is the whole deal right here.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#153 - 2012-01-15 01:31:58 UTC
When you go to 0.0, don't join a sh!tty renter alliance with 3 guys online tops. 0.0 is meant to be dangerous, if you go there you are better be prepared.

When a neut shows up in local you just tell in corp chat and have 4-5 buddies come camp the system.

What can the cloakie do then? If he stays cloaked, no problem. If he uncloaks he can get caught by a camp. If he gets on grid he can be attacked by the above buddies.

If he cynos 8000 supercaps, you were to lose that place anyway and probably did not deserve to be there.

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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-01-15 01:32:16 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
You think these threads would ditch the term AFK and not bite when it is posted by now. It just leads to 5 Page discussions about how AFK people can not hurt you.

By now their should be a more political name like Invulnerable Cloak Camping. =/


ok, then how about "cloaked people can't hurt you"


Until they unloak and light a (possibly covert) cyno?

At which point you hit "Warp," and your ship is instantly propelled off of grid and toward the safe spot to which you have been aligned this entire time, leaving behind your disappointed AFK cloaker and his even more disgruntled companions.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#155 - 2012-01-15 01:33:02 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When you go to 0.0, don't join a sh!tty renter alliance with 3 guys online tops. 0.0 is meant to be dangerous, if you go there you are better be prepared.

When a neut shows up in local you just tell in corp chat and have 4-5 buddies come camp the system.

What can the cloakie do then? If he stays cloaked, no problem. If he uncloaks he can get caught by a camp. If he gets on grid he can be attacked by the above buddies.

If he cynos 8000 supercaps, you were to lose that place anyway and probably did not deserve to be there.

I don't believe I've ever told you how much I like you. I like you a lot. Did you know?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#156 - 2012-01-15 01:33:11 UTC
As I see the usual pople, showed up to derail teh discussion...(hey meg o/ ).So enought said.This thread will probalby be locked, becasue of teh derailment.no worries..more to come...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#157 - 2012-01-15 01:34:14 UTC
No derailment, only facts. Sorry they don't sit well with you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#158 - 2012-01-15 01:34:31 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
When you go to 0.0, don't join a sh!tty renter alliance with 3 guys online tops. 0.0 is meant to be dangerous, if you go there you are better be prepared.

When a neut shows up in local you just tell in corp chat and have 4-5 buddies come camp the system.

What can the cloakie do then? If he stays cloaked, no problem. If he uncloaks he can get caught by a camp. If he gets on grid he can be attacked by the above buddies.

If he cynos 8000 supercaps, you were to lose that place anyway and probably did not deserve to be there.

I don't believe I've ever told you how much I like you. I like you a lot. Did you know?



We are ussualy 20 people at least on.Your point?
Also i HAVE to be in th BIG DAMN ALLIAMNCE OR SHUT UP?Really?
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-01-15 01:35:12 UTC
met worst wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Ships with covops cloaks aren't exactly dangerous.

Look up Rapier. Look up Manticore.

Come back to me.

I've killed several Manticores, solo, in a Rifter. What is your point? Clearly we should nerf the Rifter.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#160 - 2012-01-15 01:35:24 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I do not see how it would break Wormhole Space which would still be without Local and Static entrances while having system effects for dynamic gameplay. Perhaps it would change but not break.
I'll refer you to Ingvar Angst's thread(s) in F&I (don't have the links, but they should be easy enough to find if you search) for the full argument. In essence, the problem is that if you can detect cloaked ships at all in W-space, that knowledge causes changes in behaviour that makes any intel gathering effort rather futile.

Being able to detect cloaked ships reduces their value as recon tools, and that's also why the main complaint outside of W-space isn't about them being used for recon, but for the exact opposite: intel-disruption — because their recon ability is greatly diminished by them being automatically detected.