Player Features and Ideas Discussion

And if we are going to be really fair, lets point out that there have been CCP Devs who have sais, more or less, "We are not concerned about cloaked ships as they do very little DPS."

Mike.. go rat in a carrier, problem solved

And good thing I never said nor implied it.

I never said, impotent => safety.

I have have noted that given the ship has an active cloak and is at a safe spot then, safety => impotence.

In other words, you appear to be trying to draw an equivalence where I have not asserted one exists. So you are mis-characterizing my argument and adding substantially to it.

And it is even more ironic that you make such a huge logical mistake and then criticize me for not following your tortured logic.

Yeah... You have repeatedly claimed cloaks were ok because they were impotent. Regardless, your reply slipped in while I was typing that. It wasn't directly for you.

What I have said is that I don't want cloaks so safe that afk is possible indefinitely. There is a difference.

I love how you like to call others dishonest while twisting things around like that. I guess that's just what trolls do though. Having no real basis for your arguments you just want to start trying to just attack that emotional gut level.

If you aren't saying the impotence justifies the safety, then why bring it up?
Just more of your tactic to muddy the thread with nonsense since the actual issue clearly can't be supported with any sort of objective reasoning?

imho remove anyone thats cloaked from local in nullsec. (he cant even read it then)
this does remove the problem entirely. however, nullsec will be DANGERUS!

Yes, other than the pod each example has a specific narrow use it can be put to. All do surprisingly little damage.

A cloaked ship likewise has specific narrow uses it can be put to.

It does not matter what it can and cannot do. It is in space, it needs to be vulnerable to interaction and disruption. This need not be easy or casual to achieve, but it must not be completely under the control of the cloak user.

The dev quote is *ALL* about dps. A cloaked ship does suprisingly little damage.

A cloaked ship is exactly analogous to one that has voluntarily shut off it's modules. Nothing stops you from shutting off the cloak and activating those modules. Your only real limit is the targeting delay, which is circumvented easily by using modules that don't require targets.

Next time you are cloaked anywhere, try to shoot a rat or shoot a player. Next time you're docked in station, try to shoot a rat or a player without undocking and see what happens! See how well cloaks or docking helps you out. See? I can use your logic too.

Listen to yourself talk for once. "Imma just sit here when reds come into system to prove a point about cloaks!" How much ISK have you earned while cloaked, and how much ISK have you destroyed while cloaked? I'd love for you to give me a specific number, but we both know you won't give me that.

"Live and learn" is a good motto to go by, you have the first part of that down, so that's something...I guess....

So... Are you using the impotence to justify the safety or not?

If you are, then we know where that argument is going. If you aren't you have no point at all. Pick one and stop trying to make a point from 2 mutually exclusive arguments.

Or don't. We shall see if my son keeps his subscription active. If he doesn't you will win the argument by my having left the game.

In particular, on this day? It does not, except for locking me out of using smartbombs because some jackasses think it's funny to probe mission pockets and get CONCORD to kill you. With no way to look for enemies on grid, the safe play is simply not to play.

There are many reasons why it's important to me in the long run. It speaks of the Development priorities in the game. For a long time development has favored one sided predation on certain players over the others. The comment about how cloaks are fine because it disrupts PvE and the ships do surprisingly little dps speak volumes about just exactly how little care for game balance there really is. It's not a position that is reasonable or logical. It comes from a toddler-like glee at making a game that caters to griefers.

The only reason anyone thinks it's ok is because it benefits their own playstyle. I could adopt a play style that takes advantage of it, but it's not fun to play a game rigged in my favor. I prefer balanced gameplay that is fun for all involved. In EvE, the gameplay I enjoy hasn't seen significant development in nearly a decade. I have seen a dozen friends join the game, play for a few months or even years, and then leave because of how weighted the Development is toward predation. Dystopian worlds are only fun to play in when you are the guy on top abusing others. I could. PvP in this game is laughably easy. I just don't care to.

I am not giving up without having tried anything. I have played this game at just about every level there is. I hang out for the couple of friends and family still here, and when they go, so do I.

I have argued about this and other issues for years. I have treated people like Teckos, Kaarous, Citanel, and even the latest two with respect until they also began to just sling mud rather than actual arguments, despite their obvious lack of respect for others. They 'feel' right, but cannot actually rationalize it with out resorting to 'just because' in their attitude to favor certain kinds of PvP.

For posters like that, I could present logic dictated by God himself, etched onto gold plates with His own firey finger and they would still present the 'nuh uh' argument. Which is what it boils down to. None of you can present an argument justifying the level of safety given to a cloaked ship. You decry the safety of a ship 3 jumps away from its nearest neighbor, but it's ok for a ship that is in system to be fine because it's on your side of the debate. I mean, it's obvious because ha ha look at him explode how dare he play differently from me.

None of it matters. It hasn't mattered in years. When the head development of the game started to be pulled from the ranks of the same people who thinks tear collecting is admirable, it all became a moot point. Development for stuff other than direct PvP was poor starting shortly after launch, and it has gotten worse since.

I argue because I either want to be convinced there really is a reasonable explanation and things aren't as skewed as they clearly are, or to have real dialogue about it and maybe one day see a glimmer of hope in the future of the game. But it's not worth spending money on a game I play alone because all my friends were chased out long ago. I was gone for a couple of months, and my son began playing again.... So here I am. His account just lapsed this morning, and mine will in a day or so.

Even your example of 'fun' gameplay where you were cloak camping a fight and you spent all night flailing in darkness losing only some bait and an interceptor because cloaks prevented an actual fight due to everybody just trying to wait out everyone else is a great example of the problem, and that was an exceptional tale of a rare attempted engagement. Imagine actually being able to cat and mouse because you would have to maneuver and either advance, retreat, or win.