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Crime & Punishment

 
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Who Killed High-Sec/Casual PvP?
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ChinDownEyesUp Arkaral
We Did A Thing
Probably Up to No Good
#21 - 2016-06-04 15:35:11 UTC
a factor that has greatly impacted this is the removal of the old watchlist system.

when before a small group could run locate agents and find people where they lived, those people tended to fight back.

even before this hub camping was ALWAYS the most efficient way to do wardecs, but now the only other option has been made significantly more difficult.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#22 - 2016-06-04 15:53:02 UTC
ChinDownEyesUp Arkaral wrote:
a factor that has greatly impacted this is the removal of the old watchlist system.

when before a small group could run locate agents and find people where they lived, those people tended to fight back.

even before this hub camping was ALWAYS the most efficient way to do wardecs, but now the only other option has been made significantly more difficult.

Eh, hub camping is the most efficient way to kill people in war

But it is one of the worst possible ways to actually get fights in a war - nobody flies straight into a hub camp looking to fight it unless they are another merc corp hired to do so or something

In fact blocking access to the trade hub prevents your targets from buying new ships after you blow them up - thus preventing future fights.



I miss the days when I could actually get a *fight* in a war. And finding peoples' homes is easy - the problem is they move when the war starts. *if* they move together, then they are still easy to find even without a watch list. Honestly all the removal of the watch list makes it hard to do is find the ones who scatter - but the ones who scatter have given up and don't want to fight back - so again, they are not the people I'm talking about here.



It is telling that people have so much trouble even understanding what I mean here I think. I'm not insulting any of you - your play style is 100% valid, you are accomplishing what you want - it is just different than the casual PvP I'm talking about. Just kind of disheartening that even in the PvP oriented side of the community people don't even consider it a possibility, and the conversation keeps getting derailed to talk about other types of war with the goal of killing the enemy rather than getting a fight.

Disclaimer: Yes I know some of you do get it - I have noticed, and I do appreciate your input here. Just a lot of people here who don't see what I'm talking about as well.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#23 - 2016-06-04 16:44:19 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
ChinDownEyesUp Arkaral wrote:
a factor that has greatly impacted this is the removal of the old watchlist system.

when before a small group could run locate agents and find people where they lived, those people tended to fight back.

even before this hub camping was ALWAYS the most efficient way to do wardecs, but now the only other option has been made significantly more difficult.

Eh, hub camping is the most efficient way to kill people in war

But it is one of the worst possible ways to actually get fights in a war - nobody flies straight into a hub camp looking to fight it unless they are another merc corp hired to do so or something

In fact blocking access to the trade hub prevents your targets from buying new ships after you blow them up - thus preventing future fights.

So.. your saying both that Hubcamping is the most effective way AND blocking access to trade hub prevents future fights.
How can hub camping be the most effective way then? Roll

Hub camping is the easiest way. (and now basicly the only way)
As running or avoiding wars is the easiest way.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#24 - 2016-06-04 17:08:56 UTC
Lord Razpataz wrote:

So.. your saying both that Hubcamping is the most effective way AND blocking access to trade hub prevents future fights.
How can hub camping be the most effective way then? Roll

Hub camping is the easiest way. (and now basicly the only way)
As running or avoiding wars is the easiest way.

Once again, you are missing my point.

Hub Camping is the most effective way to farm kills. That is your goal. You don't give a **** about fights - you just want to kill them and cause damage to them. You will *never* get a fight from any carebear corporation camping a hub. EVER. You only farm the idiots who still don't want to fight, but are too stupid to avoid your hub camp.


*I* am talking about the days when carebear corps used to intentionally fit up PvP ships and intentionally come out to fight back against their attackers. About actual *fights* - where BOTH SIDES come to fight, and BOTH SIDES fire guns with the intention of killing their enemy.


You don't do this form of PvP. You never have as far as I know. You are a merc corp - not a casual PvPer. So this discussion is *not about you*. At all.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Mortlake
Republic Military School
#25 - 2016-06-04 17:32:27 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:

So.. your saying both that Hubcamping is the most effective way AND blocking access to trade hub prevents future fights.
How can hub camping be the most effective way then? Roll

Hub camping is the easiest way. (and now basicly the only way)
As running or avoiding wars is the easiest way.

Once again, you are missing my point.

Hub Camping is the most effective way to farm kills. That is your goal. You don't give a **** about fights - you just want to kill them and cause damage to them. You will *never* get a fight from any carebear corporation camping a hub. EVER. You only farm the idiots who still don't want to fight, but are too stupid to avoid your hub camp.


*I* am talking about the days when carebear corps used to intentionally fit up PvP ships and intentionally come out to fight back against their attackers. About actual *fights* - where BOTH SIDES come to fight, and BOTH SIDES fire guns with the intention of killing their enemy.


You don't do this form of PvP. You never have as far as I know. You are a merc corp - not a casual PvPer. So this discussion is *not about you*. At all.


*ok mate*

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#26 - 2016-06-04 17:34:12 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:

So.. your saying both that Hubcamping is the most effective way AND blocking access to trade hub prevents future fights.
How can hub camping be the most effective way then? Roll

Hub camping is the easiest way. (and now basicly the only way)
As running or avoiding wars is the easiest way.

Once again, you are missing my point.

Hub Camping is the most effective way to farm kills. That is your goal. You don't give a **** about fights - you just want to kill them and cause damage to them. You will *never* get a fight from any carebear corporation camping a hub. EVER. You only farm the idiots who still don't want to fight, but are too stupid to avoid your hub camp.

*I* am talking about the days when carebear corps used to intentionally fit up PvP ships and intentionally come out to fight back against their attackers. About actual *fights* - where BOTH SIDES come to fight, and BOTH SIDES fire guns with the intention of killing their enemy.

You don't do this form of PvP. You never have as far as I know. You are a merc corp - not a casual PvPer. So this discussion is *not about you*. At all.

Once again? wha?

You just came with statements that did not make sense..
As a merc, who wants to effectivly be able to kill their targets dont sit on hubs.. For the reasons you explained.
With blocking their access to get a new ship, you wont be able to kill him again, ie be effective.

Can you define whats "casual pvp" for me.. you are including wars, mercs, hubcamping etc.. but its really not what you ment to say?
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#27 - 2016-06-04 18:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Can you define whats "casual pvp" for me.. you are including wars, mercs, hubcamping etc.. but its really not what you ment to say?

I feel like I've been fairly clear on this point...

Casual PvPers, as I am using the term, are the solo or very small groups (maybe 5 at most) who don't have the numbers to fight you merc corps because we can't break your rr chains. Don't have the numbers to claim sov space, nor to take down the assorted carrier camps/roaming blobs in low-sec. And who are not interested in making the commitment of going -10 sec status to be a proper low-sec solo roamer, or scanning down wormholes/etc constantly to roam there. Therefore, most casual PvPers are left with assorted methods of trying to pick a fight in high sec.


Then, beyond that - specifically for myself I suppose. I actually enjoy a proper fight - even when I lose it. I don't care how many people I kill, or how often I die. I'm in it for the actual small scale fights. I enjoy seeing if my skills and experience can overcome their superior numbers, as well as just seeing what new tactics they sometimes think up to try.

Up until 6-9 months ago, as I said, I could actually get some decent fights out of high sec corporations through war-decs/etc. They used to have some fighting spirit, and they assembled some interesting fleets to bring against me. I even lost some ships to them sometimes - and I enjoyed it.


Recently, they have stopped putting up any resistance or fighting back at all. They act like *I* alone, even on a skill-less alt - am just as scary and hard to fight as *you* - a proper Merc corp. They won't fight back at all - they won't even try. That is the change I'm talking about. The utter loss of fighting spirit among them.



I honestly have no problem with hub camping or with having the goal of killing people regardless of whether they fight back or not. But it isn't my preferred style. ***and it has nothing to do with the fighting spirit of the carebears vs solo/small groups, which is what this thread is about***

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#28 - 2016-06-04 21:48:49 UTC
Carebear is a state of mind. They don't want to learn how to EVE. They're the people who will say "Huh, war?" and fly straight into the hubcamps several times. They're the people who will fly an untanked retriever to a belt with flashy red all over local and not hide, more than once. They're also the kind of players will join the big blue donut and mine all day.

Most of the hisec non-merc not-carebears have figured out that the simplest, easiest way to avoid a wardec is to drop corp and/or avoid the hubs, pipes, and mission systems. They know they haven't got any experience actually fighting, so they're going to just lose. They don't really value the experience of learning how to fight because that's not really what they wanted to do anyway, and they know that most of them are at a serious gear and skill sheet disadvantage. So, why fight if you don't have to?

Occasionally you get something fun like Brave wiping out PIRAT's Tengu fleet and POCOs, but they're not really a hisec corp.

A signature :o
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#29 - 2016-06-05 01:20:48 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Carebear is a state of mind. They don't want to learn how to EVE. They're the people who will say "Huh, war?" and fly straight into the hubcamps several times. They're the people who will fly an untanked retriever to a belt with flashy red all over local and not hide, more than once. They're also the kind of players will join the big blue donut and mine all day.

Most of the hisec non-merc not-carebears have figured out that the simplest, easiest way to avoid a wardec is to drop corp and/or avoid the hubs, pipes, and mission systems. They know they haven't got any experience actually fighting, so they're going to just lose. They don't really value the experience of learning how to fight because that's not really what they wanted to do anyway, and they know that most of them are at a serious gear and skill sheet disadvantage. So, why fight if you don't have to?

Occasionally you get something fun like Brave wiping out PIRAT's Tengu fleet and POCOs, but they're not really a hisec corp.

Well, contrary to the beliefs of young pilots like you - it wasn't always like that. The majority of carebears used to have some fighting spirit, and many even had some teeth/claws. And while I can't speak for all pilots - I know *I* had a ton of fun as a young noob carebear when I got to defend myself against the big bad professional PvPers.

It *is* a state of mind - but not the state of mind you seem to think.

Shallanna Yassavi wrote:

They know they haven't got any experience actually fighting, so they're going to just lose. They don't really value the experience of learning how to fight because that's not really what they wanted to do anyway, and they know that most of them are at a serious gear and skill sheet disadvantage. So, why fight if you don't have to?

^ That is precisely the modern carebear mindset that I don't understand. They could easily win many of the wars vs smaller/non-professional groups, but they all have this attitude that they should just give up....They would rather disband their corporations or even quit EVE entirely than teach the bullies a lesson - even when they COULD win.

They could even win vs the big merc groups if they just worked together. I mean **** - even if every single pilot currently at war with any of the major hub-camping corps showed up in a ****ing rookie ship with the stock civilian weapons they would *still* deal enough damage to break the tank + rr of their ships with ease.

The only thing stopping the carebears from having the safe space to live in that they seem to desire so much is their own insane cowardice and unwillingness to do anything to preserve/defend it...




Also I still consider anybody who doesn't do PvP as their primary activity in EVE as a carebear - it is just how I was raised. If that makes you a carebear - too bad, deal with it.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#30 - 2016-06-05 01:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Honestly if I could convince myself that any spark of backbone still lived in the carebears of high sec, I would probably post with my main and attempt to rally the peace loving citizens of high sec to join forces and defeat the big bad scary people making high sec so horrible for them.

And with the ally mechanics, reinforcing one's carebear brethren doesn't even cost a single isk (other than the ammo you expend, and some t1 frigate hulls)...

It would end up much like the movie "A Bug's Life" - when the ants finally realize that although individually they can't defeat the grasshoppers, they outnumber the grasshoppers 1000 to 1 - so if they just worked together they could win so easily it wouldn't even be funny.

I would do this to bring some real content back to EVE high sec. Even though I've never truly considered myself a white knight - I'd do it to bring back some real PvP in the laid back realm that I love.



But alas...I can not convince myself that even the tiniest spark of fighting spirit remains in the modern carebear of high sec. And so I am left merely to lament that casual PvP is pretty much dead.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-06-05 04:08:36 UTC
Your question is essentially "Why did a group of player not versed into PvP no longer engage into PvP as much as they sued to?"

It's almost like the adapt or die thing happened...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#32 - 2016-06-05 04:30:12 UTC
So do YOU want to fight empire mercs or do you want everyone else to fight them. At some point your message got lost. What do you want?
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#33 - 2016-06-05 04:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Adoulin
I'm basically a solo merc who sometimes wardecs for the fun and sometimes because I get paid.

I've actually forced......all by myself......corps who outnumbered me 100 to one to take down their large towers.

Out of fear, I suppose. Even with minimal defenses its almost impossible for one guy to drop a armed tower by himself.

I get what the OP is saying. I've seen it. As a result I try to stay in t1 ships (non-faction) as much as possible. If they so much as see a t3 cruiser they all dock up........

One thing I think is the reason is that CCP raised the wardec fee's.

Lower the fee's and you will see smaller merc corps out there. As it is now you need big merc units to split the costs.......

And now we have.......citadels.


Do I expect CCP to lower dec fee's?

Excuse me whilst I laugh. A lot.

Roll

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#34 - 2016-06-05 04:48:25 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Can you define whats "casual pvp" for me.. you are including wars, mercs, hubcamping etc.. but its really not what you ment to say?

I feel like I've been fairly clear on this point...

Casual PvPers, as I am using the term, are the solo or very small groups (maybe 5 at most) who don't have the numbers to fight you merc corps because we can't break your rr chains. Don't have the numbers to claim sov space, nor to take down the assorted carrier camps/roaming blobs in low-sec. And who are not interested in making the commitment of going -10 sec status to be a proper low-sec solo roamer, or scanning down wormholes/etc constantly to roam there. Therefore, most casual PvPers are left with assorted methods of trying to pick a fight in high sec.

Then, beyond that - specifically for myself I suppose. I actually enjoy a proper fight - even when I lose it. I don't care how many people I kill, or how often I die. I'm in it for the actual small scale fights. I enjoy seeing if my skills and experience can overcome their superior numbers, as well as just seeing what new tactics they sometimes think up to try.

Up until 6-9 months ago, as I said, I could actually get some decent fights out of high sec corporations through war-decs/etc. They used to have some fighting spirit, and they assembled some interesting fleets to bring against me. I even lost some ships to them sometimes - and I enjoyed it.

Recently, they have stopped putting up any resistance or fighting back at all. They act like *I* alone, even on a skill-less alt - am just as scary and hard to fight as *you* - a proper Merc corp. They won't fight back at all - they won't even try. That is the change I'm talking about. The utter loss of fighting spirit among them.

I honestly have no problem with hub camping or with having the goal of killing people regardless of whether they fight back or not. But it isn't my preferred style. ***and it has nothing to do with the fighting spirit of the carebears vs solo/small groups, which is what this thread is about***

*What* *are* *you* *blathering* *about* *?*

Scouts, spys, and noob alts just to get fights for your main (whoever he is) with carebears? That's not casual.
Or, frankly, believable.

As for "the fighting spirit of the carebears" that you call the point of this thread?
They don't call us "bears" because we poop in the woods.Bear

I mean, I do.
But the rest of us probably don't.
Poop in the woods that is.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#35 - 2016-06-05 07:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Mike Adoulin wrote:
I'm basically a solo merc who sometimes wardecs for the fun and sometimes because I get paid.

I've actually forced......all by myself......corps who outnumbered me 100 to one to take down their large towers.

Out of fear, I suppose. Even with minimal defenses its almost impossible for one guy to drop a armed tower by himself.

I get what the OP is saying. I've seen it. As a result I try to stay in t1 ships (non-faction) as much as possible. If they so much as see a t3 cruiser they all dock up........

One thing I think is the reason is that CCP raised the wardec fee's.

Lower the fee's and you will see smaller merc corps out there. As it is now you need big merc units to split the costs.......

And now we have.......citadels.


Do I expect CCP to lower dec fee's?

Excuse me whilst I laugh. A lot.

Roll


If you cut the fees in half, the current player farmers will double the number of decs they have active. Lowering dec fees is the opposite of the solution. Why would I start a small merc corp that can dec 20 corps when I could join a large merc corp and be a part of 200 decs? You're lowering fees idea is idiotic.

They should ramp steeply with each successive dec/assist. Forcing aggressor corps/alliances to actually make a choice other than 'everyone' when putting in their war decs. Once choice is required, then value and meaning follow. Then the merc market can return to a contract based system and move away from player farming.

Maybe I'm old school, but I believe the point of the war dec system is to provide an avenue for HS dwellers to solve their differences with violence, malice and explosions. The current mechanics don't support anything close to that.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#36 - 2016-06-05 11:40:17 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
So do YOU want to fight empire mercs or do you want everyone else to fight them. At some point your message got lost. What do you want?

You are right, it has been lost - but clearly there is no point trying to bring it back at this point between the people who stubbornly refuse to understand and the forum trolls =P


Thank you to everyone for their input - I actually did gain some useful insights on how this change occurred and why it isn't likely to be fixed. Even those of you who are just plain incapable of getting it (for whatever reason) - your mindset is a good illustration of why this change happened I think.

Of course I will continue to miss "the good old days" - but I suppose that is just classic EVE bittervet syndrome.

o7

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#37 - 2016-06-05 12:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:

Scouts, spys, and noob alts just to get fights for your main (whoever he is) with carebears? That's not casual.
Or, frankly, believable.

Which is why I mentioned *none* of those things in the context of getting a fight, nor of casual PvP....

Though I did mention spies and noob alts in the context of researching this topic (which takes no effort since I had no intention of fighting anyone on my noob alts). At one point, when I was *not* just a casual player I had 4 fully active accounts - which is 12 character slots. Really not that much effort to make skill-free alts. I'm talking to you on one right now....I just click this picture instead of that other one...



But I'm done trying to explain it. For those of you whose mind jumped to this ^ and are completely incapable of understanding what it even means to have an actual "fight" in EVE - I pity you. I really do.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Negasonic Teenage Warhead
Doomheim
#38 - 2016-06-05 12:28:36 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

But I'm done trying to explain it.


It's for the best. It was getting pretty ******* boring, to be frank.
Rawmeat Mary
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#39 - 2016-06-05 16:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawmeat Mary
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Mike Adoulin wrote:
I'm basically a solo merc who sometimes wardecs for the fun and sometimes because I get paid.

I've actually forced......all by myself......corps who outnumbered me 100 to one to take down their large towers.

Out of fear, I suppose. Even with minimal defenses its almost impossible for one guy to drop a armed tower by himself.

I get what the OP is saying. I've seen it. As a result I try to stay in t1 ships (non-faction) as much as possible. If they so much as see a t3 cruiser they all dock up........

One thing I think is the reason is that CCP raised the wardec fee's.

Lower the fee's and you will see smaller merc corps out there. As it is now you need big merc units to split the costs.......

And now we have.......citadels.


Do I expect CCP to lower dec fee's?

Excuse me whilst I laugh. A lot.

Roll


If you cut the fees in half, the current player farmers will double the number of decs they have active. Lowering dec fees is the opposite of the solution. Why would I start a small merc corp that can dec 20 corps when I could join a large merc corp and be a part of 200 decs? You're lowering fees idea is idiotic.

They should ramp steeply with each successive dec/assist. Forcing aggressor corps/alliances to actually make a choice other than 'everyone' when putting in their war decs. Once choice is required, then value and meaning follow. Then the merc market can return to a contract based system and move away from player farming.

Maybe I'm old school, but I believe the point of the war dec system is to provide an avenue for HS dwellers to solve their differences with violence, malice and explosions. The current mechanics don't support anything close to that.
I agree.

However, we'd need some way to actually be able to track targeted contracts for this to work, either a Watchlist substitut (maybe through a structure or Citadel module linked to Wardecs) and/or an overhaul of Locator Agents.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#40 - 2016-06-05 23:45:07 UTC
Rawmeat Mary wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Mike Adoulin wrote:
I'm basically a solo merc who sometimes wardecs for the fun and sometimes because I get paid.

I've actually forced......all by myself......corps who outnumbered me 100 to one to take down their large towers.

Out of fear, I suppose. Even with minimal defenses its almost impossible for one guy to drop a armed tower by himself.

I get what the OP is saying. I've seen it. As a result I try to stay in t1 ships (non-faction) as much as possible. If they so much as see a t3 cruiser they all dock up........

One thing I think is the reason is that CCP raised the wardec fee's.

Lower the fee's and you will see smaller merc corps out there. As it is now you need big merc units to split the costs.......

And now we have.......citadels.


Do I expect CCP to lower dec fee's?

Excuse me whilst I laugh. A lot.

Roll


If you cut the fees in half, the current player farmers will double the number of decs they have active. Lowering dec fees is the opposite of the solution. Why would I start a small merc corp that can dec 20 corps when I could join a large merc corp and be a part of 200 decs? You're lowering fees idea is idiotic.

They should ramp steeply with each successive dec/assist. Forcing aggressor corps/alliances to actually make a choice other than 'everyone' when putting in their war decs. Once choice is required, then value and meaning follow. Then the merc market can return to a contract based system and move away from player farming.

Maybe I'm old school, but I believe the point of the war dec system is to provide an avenue for HS dwellers to solve their differences with violence, malice and explosions. The current mechanics don't support anything close to that.
I agree.

However, we'd need some way to actually be able to track targeted contracts for this to work, either a Watchlist substitut (maybe through a structure or Citadel module linked to Wardecs) and/or an overhaul of Locator Agents.



CCP has a long history of not going back on a bad change. I don't see them bringing back the watch list. Acknowledging also that what they did is yet another concession to a few whineybitch super owners who are averse to risking their ships - I don't see things going back to where you can see an adversary/quarry log in and out of the game. The personal irony is that the same folks that argued the watch list into the history books also whine about afk cloaking AND won't let go of the free intel of local until we pry it from there cold dead hands. (I'll overlook that you can now dock a super and that if you kill the station that it's in... space magic poofs it to a place of safety....sigh because that's not totally against how Eve used to work???)

Add in the OP on the network sensor array and CCP is doubling down on making the game 'enjoyable' for a small part of the player base. One of my characters in a sleipnir got insta locked and pwnt by an aeon this morning when I got home from work. It's pretty difficult to roam in null from a wh entrance right now because current mechanics just don't support it. I've lost probably 50 or so sleipnirs, I'm not salty over the loss - I'm concerned about the future of roaming null for pvp.

Now that (according to you - and I'm not saying you're wrong) CCP has killed HS pvp, they are now working on killing null roaming by taking away the watch list, adding network sensor arrays..... it's probably only a matter of time until they screw with cloaks and make them next to useless. And what do I see as the end game? 5 dudes in a CCP board room arguing as to why no one plays their boring super-safe and horribly uninteresting game anymore. I don't see massive carrier fights, because folks are afraid to lose carriers/supers. I see roaming going away due to network sensor arrays making it a bad option for pvp. I see network sensor array pilots deciding not to log in because there are no roamers to insta kill (they'll spend a few months gorging on isk and then realize that a big pile of isk doesn't make the game fun or interesting).

TL/DR If you take the hard edge off of Eve - it will become a footnote in gaming history.