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AF Bonus output from Chaos: Please don't do MWD!

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Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#61 - 2012-01-14 08:06:22 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
That wouldn't really solve the problem of them getting instantly blapped as soon as they try to move around said battlefield.


Well I was thinking that warpins unhindered by bubbles might prove somewhat valuable. Getting a whole bunch of little piranhas under the big guns and then being able to warp out again when they start to draw too much attention (at least on ships not individually pointed) seems at least in theory to be something worthwhile and on AFs not unbalanced.

Then again if they're just skirmishing, raiding enemy space, or looking for small gang fights they have an enhanced ability to withdraw from superior forces and evade gate camps.
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-01-14 09:15:44 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
That wouldn't really solve the problem of them getting instantly blapped as soon as they try to move around said battlefield.


Well I was thinking that warpins unhindered by bubbles might prove somewhat valuable. Getting a whole bunch of little piranhas under the big guns and then being able to warp out again when they start to draw too much attention (at least on ships not individually pointed) seems at least in theory to be something worthwhile and on AFs not unbalanced.

Then again if they're just skirmishing, raiding enemy space, or looking for small gang fights they have an enhanced ability to withdraw from superior forces and evade gate camps.



Actually this does seem pretty nice, kinda makes these ships like shock troopers

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Kenpachi Viktor
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-01-14 12:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenpachi Viktor
I'd like to see a 10% AB speed boost, with web immunity put up for testing

A war that would’ve involved 20,000 players, 75% of nullsec space, and hundreds of supercapitals was halted not by diplomacy, but by a game mechanic so dreadful that those who have experienced it previously have no desire to do so again. - Fix POS & SOV
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#64 - 2012-01-14 13:05:29 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
:facepalm:
I swear this is like talking to bricks.


Nope. It's like talking to people who don't agree with you. Gosh, what has the world come to?

Katrina Oniseki
HaydenJD
War Crime Syndicate
#65 - 2012-01-14 13:08:02 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
They aren't tackle ships, as 3 classes for said ships already exist, one of which is *heavy* tackle.
Interceptors, Interdictors, & Heavy Interdictors.

The middle ground would be somewhere around 1400m/s (ship depending), which is a 50% speed bonus:
- barely faster than a cruiser (1600 thorax is 1200m/s, 1800 overloaded)
- still insanely overpowered if said ships actually get the tackle or combat missile boats

AFs are like Miniature HACs.
HACs are geared to go toe to toe with the T1 ships over them, Battlecruisers.
By relation AFs are geared to go toe to toe with T1 cruisers.

heavy combat ship standings:
T1 Frigate < AFs ~= T1 Cruisers
T1 Cruisers < HACs ~= T1 Battlecruisers
T1 Battlecruisers < Command Ships ~= T1 Battleships

That's how the game would live up when the AFs go through.


A problem I've encountered with trying to put a MWD on an AF is fitting requirements, I had to change my fits. Most people I have seen flying AFs use ABs so why not give a bonus that would benefit and define a role like it has been said but a small AB bonus would be fine, better than a bonus for MWDs that will go largely unused. I agree with everything you have said though and this other guy clearly hasn't flown in 0.0 where they will be used mostly and seen how they are actually used. They are for dealing damage and that's obvious, not tackle like he thinks (I have no idea why he thinks that even).
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-01-14 17:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Well keep in mind that fitting an AB has advantages over MWD, and one of them is fitting.
It's far easier to fit top tier weapons and modules with an afterburner, but if you want to increase versatility with the MWD, you need to adjust your fit accordingly. There's nothing wrong with ships being hard to fit, and this keeps the balance in favour of AB-fits over MWD-fits should the two ever meet in low sec..

Think of it like a home team advantage.
MWD > AB in lawless space
AB > MWD in Empire

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
HaydenJD
War Crime Syndicate
#67 - 2012-01-14 18:38:35 UTC
Do you think this will be the thing to make people change their fits though? I will still use ABs personally.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-01-14 19:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
It won't change every persons play style, but it will take AFs out of their niche and allow them to be used elsewhere.
Those who prefer AB will keep using AB with the new bonuses & slots, and those who prefer/need to use MWD will now have a viable ship to use outside (or even in) empire.

It's similar to Interceptors and how they have a similar sig bonus.
People use them with AB as well as MWD. AFs currently can't use MWD without severely crippling their combat abilities, and AFs fit with ABs have a very small engagement scope.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-01-14 19:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
this is a terrible thread. threads like these confirm that it is sometimes a terrible idea to listen to the community. did most of you just crawl out of a cave or something? the AB bonus WAS ALREADY ATTEMPTED and the community's decision was UNANIMOUS: AB-bonused AF's were next to impossible to kill and catch.

AB is still viable on AF's, as it makes them much tankier. dual prop is still viable. but having tank, dps AND speed without any drawbacks is fuckin ludicrous.

again, props to Tallest for a GOOD AF buff.
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance
#70 - 2012-01-15 00:04:30 UTC
Threads like these makes me laugh so much at how stupid the average eve player is!
I like Duncan
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-01-15 09:51:32 UTC
Let's see how the MWD role bonus pans out. If it turns out to be terrible then the role bonus can always be revisited. I have tested these tons (the ones I have skill for that is) and they seem to be ok. Sure some need a tweak here and there, but the role bonus does not feel as insulting as I first thought. I would love to see a frigate with an AB bonus, but perhaps the AF is not the right one.

Who knows, maybe when we see T3 frigates some day they will have an AB bonus.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-01-15 10:15:47 UTC
The problem with the MWD role bonus is that exactly the same as the old blanket AB bonus it makes the good ships a little better, and the bad ships still just as bad. Personally, I think that what would really make AFs a more viable and interesting class is splitting them in half the same way that inties are.


Four of them get redesigned into a tackler style role in the mold of the jaguar... maybe mwd sig bonus would actually work well for them. They get to be fast, but not as fast as inties but tougher and with better damage projection between 10 and 20km.

The other four are about close range damage in the style of the retribution/enyo, and those guys get a a slight boost to AB, say 25 or 50% at max skills. That would make the slower AFs (particularly with plates) a little more survivable under their targets guns.

This way, the jag (aka the king of AFs) doesn't get an absurd AB bonus that makes it OP, and the damage frigs that want to use AB to get on big guns don't get a worthless MWD bonus.

On the face of it, I am ok with the MWD role bonus even if it is mostly going to be ignored, simply because we'll be getting the 4th bonuses, and the retribution becoming actually viable. As a whole package, the MWD bonus isn't the bit I care about. However, as someone who trained AF5 during the last round of AF improvements, I really would like to see more variation in the class.

As a random aside... Does anyone else remember those OLD dbdumps that had some seriously weird ideas for t2 frigs in them, including the escort frigs with one resist at 99% and the rest at normal ? Sometimes you have to be grateful for what we end up with even if its imperfect ;)
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-01-15 18:20:28 UTC
IIRC those escort frigates are still in the database as unpublished ships

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Ryans Revenge
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-01-17 12:44:48 UTC
I'd prefer a bonus making Assault Frigates invulnerable to Warp Scramblers myself :).
HaydenJD
War Crime Syndicate
#75 - 2012-01-17 18:30:51 UTC
Ryans Revenge wrote:
I'd prefer a bonus making Assault Frigates invulnerable to Warp Scramblers myself :).


Stupid idea. Go get a Skiff.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-01-17 18:48:46 UTC
or fit a wcs

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-01-17 19:34:22 UTC
+1 to you OP

Ceptors are the MWD kings we don't need another mwd frigate that will still be subpar vs Navy comets, Navy slicers, Navy Hookbill, Firetail, Dramiel (did I said Dramiel?? frack me) and DD oc.

Put that 100% AB bonus on it and wait 6 months, if they really become top dogs then change it but we already know it's not what will happen, that will not make those top dogs but just excellent at their job witch is to PIN stuff and stay there under web neut scram and tanking those nasty drones. Give them means to do their job dammit, what are you afraid of CCP?
Zircon Dasher
#78 - 2012-01-17 19:47:09 UTC
mmmmmm.... 100% AB bonus :slobber:

oh wait. but 'ceptors really would be obsolete then.

Damn.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-01-17 20:02:43 UTC
and cruisers.
and destroyers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#80 - 2012-01-17 23:38:58 UTC
My thoughts are MWD just isn't well balanced on a small cap ship that needs speed to avoid getting clobbered. With a MWD running and guns firing you cap out rather quickly and then what? MWD AF is then a suicide machine against anything with a scram, web/neut you are dead. They turn like bricks compared to intys and their tank really isn't that much better comparably.

An AB bonus would better suit an AF role.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac