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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#81 - 2016-05-22 12:22:27 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Or do you have some other weird and wonderful suggestion like a mechanical method to click your left mouse button every hour?
Try using your finger?

If you're really good at this 'clicking a mouse button every hour or so' game, you can even do it while working, playing on another account, surfing the web, watching tv, doing house chores, you name it! In other words, while you're actually AFK on that account in every way that matters.


However while you are asleep and working you cannot do it, unless you can login at work or you account share when sleeping, however just because someone can do this in his active period means I am gathering intel on his real activity, so .it enables me to gather that intel faster. Of course he can try to game it, but that's fine.

Any other thoughts?
So you want this feature to gather intel on when people are sleeping?

Intel that, by your own admission, can easily be gamed?

That's both dumb and a bit creepy.

But I'll play along: what exactly would you do with all this bad intel?


Bad intel, what planet are you on, you have turned intel on when a player is active in game to knowing when he is asleep, so you have chosen to frame it in a dumb way and say its dumb intel.

For anyone with a brain trying to set up a counter drop knowing when he is likely to be active means you can actually do something against them.

It is a pleasure to expose yet another dumb forum warrior using the normal Eve forum tricks who fails miserably at it. RollBig smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2016-05-22 12:35:03 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Bad intel, what planet are you on, you have turned intel on when a player is active in game to knowing when he is asleep, so you have chosen to frame it in a dumb way and say its dumb intel.

For anyone with a brain trying to set up a counter drop knowing when he is likely to be active means you can actually do something against them.

It is a pleasure to expose yet another dumb forum warrior using the normal Eve forum tricks who fails miserably at it. RollBig smile
Please refrain from personal attacks, I haven't insulted you.

As we agreed, even with your magical AFK flag a cloaky camper can easily pretend he's active when in fact he isn't, for 12 or more hours a day.

Narrowing down his potential activity window to 12 hours instead of 24 does not help you in any significant way. You still don't even know if he has a cyno fitted.


Furthermore, killing one or a few cloaky frigates is apparently fun for you (cool), but has close to zero affect on the capability of any individual or group to cloaky camp and/or effectively blops.


I described a much better solution above, which is actually in CCP's plans by the way. It's a shame you ignored it in favor of your personal war against people wasting electricity while they sleep.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#83 - 2016-05-22 13:04:28 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Bad intel, what planet are you on, you have turned intel on when a player is active in game to knowing when he is asleep, so you have chosen to frame it in a dumb way and say its dumb intel.

For anyone with a brain trying to set up a counter drop knowing when he is likely to be active means you can actually do something against them.

It is a pleasure to expose yet another dumb forum warrior using the normal Eve forum tricks who fails miserably at it. RollBig smile
Please refrain from personal attacks, I haven't insulted you.

As we agreed, even with your magical AFK flag a cloaky camper can easily pretend he's active when in fact he isn't, for 12 or more hours a day.

Narrowing down his potential activity window to 12 hours instead of 24 does not help you in any significant way. You still don't even know if he has a cyno fitted.


Furthermore, killing one or a few cloaky frigates is apparently fun for you (cool), but has close to zero affect on the capability of any individual or group to cloaky camp and/or effectively blops.


I described a much better solution above, which is actually in CCP's plans by the way. It's a shame you ignored it in favor of your personal war against people wasting electricity while they sleep.


You changed it to be looking to find if someone was asslep and then deemed it dumb and creepy, that was insulting and a personal attack, so you are hurt by me exposing that as dumb, sorry that you are such a tender soul. Next thing you will be asking for safe spaces on the Eve forums. I will meet insult with insult and talk respectively if people talk with respect, defining it as you did was not respectful.

How have you proved that he can easily pretend to be active when he is at work or asleep, the options are use a bot, build a mechanical device to click the mouse button or account share, or log in from work, if that is possible.

Well once I know he is active now we start the baiting side of things. We can even set up tasty bait with a counter drop and have a chance of getting something. If he chose not to drop means that we gather more intel on whether he is really a threat, especially if the bait is juicy.

Killing a cloaky frigate and podding him means your system is clear and the poor sap has to go and get a new ship and make his way back there. Last time I did that it gained four days of peace because he got caught twice on gate camps coming back in, was funny.

Nothing to do with saving electricity, that's up to him if he wastes money paying for it, my objective is to know when he is active so I can play the game against him, and that is the only reason not some dumb suggestion like saving electricity.

The Rorqual suggestion is to give some value to that ship in 0.0, sounds good, as you correctly stated it enables people who are able to defend their space to do so, my suggestion is to enable a counter to be set up when the person is likely to be active, therefore defending their space. I hardly call sitting around with a bait ship and a trap for 24 hours rewarding play...



When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2016-05-22 13:29:35 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
How have you proved that he can easily pretend to be active when he is at work or asleep, the options are use a bot, build a mechanical device to click the mouse button or account share, or log in from work, if that is possible.

Well once I know he is active now we start the baiting side of things. We can even set up tasty bait with a counter drop and have a chance of getting something. If he chose not to drop means that we gather more intel on whether he is really a threat, especially if the bait is juicy.
He doesn't even have to click while sleeping, nor when he's at work (though many EVE players are students, some unemployed, some work from home, etc...).

And please also note that he doesn't have to click continuously to give you bad intel.


Say he clicks at 5am when he wakes up to go take a leak. Then he wakes up proper at 7am and clicks while sipping a coffee. Then he clicks at 7.45 am and finally at 8.30 am before leaving to go from work.

Say some days he eats at home, so another couple of clicks around 1pm. Then he gets home at 6pm and clicks randomly until 11pm or so when he goes to sleep.

Next day maybe he has a half-day off from work and mixes up his clicking schedule a bit.

All this time he was just messing with you and doesn't even have a cyno, let alone friends in blops ready to go.


In this example your intel is effectively this: dude isn't active between 12am and 5am, rarely active around 10-11am and 2-5pm. Rest of the time you have no damn clue. That's like 15 hours out of 24 of potential activity.

Isn't that terrible intel, basically useless? And this is just an example. The guy could easily ask his partner to click once in a while. Sure, it's account sharing and against the EULA but how the hell would you know? Yes they're cheating, but what proof would you even have to report them?


My point stands, AFK flag is dumb and all but useless.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#85 - 2016-05-22 13:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
How have you proved that he can easily pretend to be active when he is at work or asleep, the options are use a bot, build a mechanical device to click the mouse button or account share, or log in from work, if that is possible.

Well once I know he is active now we start the baiting side of things. We can even set up tasty bait with a counter drop and have a chance of getting something. If he chose not to drop means that we gather more intel on whether he is really a threat, especially if the bait is juicy.
He doesn't even have to click while sleeping, nor when he's at work (though many EVE players are students, some unemployed, some work from home, etc...).

And please also note that he doesn't have to click continuously to give you bad intel.


Say he clicks at 5am when he wakes up to go take a leak. Then he wakes up proper at 7am and clicks while sipping a coffee. Then he clicks at 7.45 am and finally at 8.30 am before leaving to go from work.

Say some days he eats at home, so another couple of clicks around 1pm. Then he gets home at 6pm and clicks randomly until 11pm or so when he goes to sleep.

Next day maybe he has a half-day off from work and mixes up his clicking schedule a bit.

All this time he was just messing with you and doesn't even have a cyno, let alone friends in blops ready to go.


In this example your intel is effectively this: dude isn't active between 12am and 5am, rarely active around 10-11am and 2-5pm. Rest of the time you have no damn clue. That's like 15 hours out of 24 of potential activity.

Isn't that terrible intel, basically useless? And this is just an example. The guy could easily ask his partner to click once in a while. Sure, it's account sharing and against the EULA but how the hell would you know? Yes they're cheating, but what proof would you even have to report them?


My point stands, AFK flag is dumb and all but useless.


I of course disagree, many people work, are at lessons, have wives and girl friends etc. even a social life away from the basement.

Have you ever done pattern matching? Do you just take the worst example you can think of and assume that works for everyone, what you said was just dumb, in my experience AFK cloaky campers are the laziest people in the game... But I would not assume all of them are lazy!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2016-05-22 13:54:05 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Do you just take the worst example you can think of and assume that works for everyone
Let's take a 'best case' example, then.

Camper dude has a busy social and work life. So he just clicks a bit each morning and the evenings he's at home.

That still gives you around 6 hours of potential activity, in random days of the week.

He just lazily sits there for two weeks, without even paying much attention to what's going on in system because, as you suggest, he is indeed hugely lazy. Good luck baiting him, he's alt-tabbed to his cloaky alt just for the 2 seconds he needs to click on something.

Then, in the third week, he sees a good opportunity and calls in the calvary one random evening at 8pm, that you could in no way predict. OP success, some PVE ships DIAF.


The only thing your AFK flag did was avoid you wasting time when he was definitely AFK. You still wasted your time when he was actually AFK but pretending not to be. His targets still lost their ships.


AFK flag is useless even in a best case scenario.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#87 - 2016-05-22 14:05:52 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Do you just take the worst example you can think of and assume that works for everyone
Let's take a 'best case' example, then.

Camper dude has a busy social and work life. So he just clicks a bit each morning and the evenings he's at home.

That still gives you around 6 hours of potential activity, in random days of the week.

He just lazily sits there for two weeks, without even paying much attention to what's going on in system because, as you suggest, he is indeed hugely lazy. Good luck baiting him, he's alt-tabbed to his cloaky alt just for the 2 seconds he needs to click on something.

Then, in the third week, he sees a good opportunity and calls in the calvary one random evening at 8pm, that you could in no way predict. OP success, some PVE ships DIAF.


The only thing your AFK flag did was avoid you wasting time when he was definitely AFK. You still wasted your time when he was actually AFK but pretending not to be. His targets still lost their ships.

AFK flag is useless even in a best case scenario.


Ah but I did mention pattern matching, perhaps you don't understand that, logging on and other such activities often result in a pattern, once I went after a cloaky camper who put insulting messages on his Mobile Depots, I reinforced them but never when he was logging on, so he would log on and then warp to one pick it up and put it down again, then do it to the second one, I timed everything and had an interceptor ready for him when he arrived at the second one. I conditioned him to make an error.

The dudes in that system having worked out his activities are now ratting and earning ISK and can easily replace their losses, second aspect is that they would have identified his likely period of activity due to logons and then going AFK, when he does something its noted which means he is active. And when that drop occurred they had that counter drop ready and a number of expensive BLOP's DIAF.

AFK flag has achieved its intention of allowing the defender to know when best to set up their trap in spite of attempts to mask it and enables people to play the game in spite of someone being a lazy AFK player.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2016-05-22 14:16:19 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Ah but I did mention pattern matching, perhaps you don't understand that, logging on and other such activities often result in a pattern, once I went after a cloaky camper who put insulting messages on his Mobile Depots, I reinforced them but never when he was logging on, so he would log on and then warp to one pick it up and put it down again, then do it to the second one, I timed everything and had an interceptor ready for him when he arrived at the second one. I conditioned him to make an error.
Cool story, but this happened because of your dedication on one side and that guy's laziness on the other.

Also proof that AFK flag isn't necessary, since it looks like you catch cloakies just fine without!


If that guy weren't so lazy and predictable, would the AFK flag have gotten you the kill? Be honest here.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#89 - 2016-05-22 14:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Ah but I did mention pattern matching, perhaps you don't understand that, logging on and other such activities often result in a pattern, once I went after a cloaky camper who put insulting messages on his Mobile Depots, I reinforced them but never when he was logging on, so he would log on and then warp to one pick it up and put it down again, then do it to the second one, I timed everything and had an interceptor ready for him when he arrived at the second one. I conditioned him to make an error.
Cool story, but this happened because of your dedication on one side and that guy's laziness on the other.

Also proof that AFK flag isn't necessary, since it looks like you catch cloakies just fine without!


If that guy weren't so lazy and predictable, would the AFK flag have gotten you the kill? Be honest here.


Yes it would have helped, I had worked out this by observing him, log on timings being especially important, I would have got that trap set up sooner and killed him earlier, the guy was incredibly ineffective, the issue was more to do with the other group who were NCDOT. aligned and were account sharing. In that case I would have realised they were account sharing sooner, by the time I had worked that out too many people had drifted away and the damage was done.

The OP obviously wants to shoot his AFK cloaky campers, I want him to be able to shoot them, I want this type of activity happen more in that people have fun hunting them and feel that they can do something, it is really difficult to get people setup to do a counter drop when you have no real idea of the guys actual timings unless you have managed to work it out by his kill reports, his corp history and his activities. Some people create new alts and then use them, the SP injectors have made this even more effective in terms of making that toon easier to set up with the right skills and impossible to work out their activities. In a way it enables the intel guy to balance off against the change caused by skill injectors and the removal of the watch list on their BLOP's.

I for one want no change in cloaking at all, its fine as it is, the issue is AFK play and that's it.

EDIT: Even better if one had to put an Observatory Structure that worked only for the system it was in that enabled this type of intel, so it can be destroyed and create content. I don't want free intel, so that would be my preferred option in doing this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#90 - 2016-05-22 15:47:39 UTC
So many good suggestions given to the op. So many excuses as to not even try.

We cant help someone who isn't willing to help themselves.

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#91 - 2016-05-22 22:00:50 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
john sasha wrote:
There needs to be a counter to cloaky campers. Like fuel required to cloak. Really tired of not being able to play eve cause a camping cloacker. Please come up with a counter to this problem. Its very easy to forget to pay a sub when I can't play the game.


how are you not able to play because of cloaker? Is your undock button disabled or what?



How are you not able to play because of rats on gates? Is your local rep/RR disabled or what?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#92 - 2016-05-29 08:36:27 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
john sasha wrote:
And in this weak the troll strikes back!

Not even sure who you are referring to here. Is it you or me that is a troll? And if I'm the troll, are you then the weak? I mean, it does make sense, considering you are afraid of AFK cloakies.

But anyway, you got me gooooooood brah. Like reeaaaaaal gooooooood.


So says a player who operates in cheap ships only, go on get in a Vargur or something like that and show us how real men do it against cloaky AFK campers.

So I enjoy solo frigate PvP, what does that have to do with anything? Yes, it is so much more manly to whore on code suicide ganks... Uuuuuuuu... So pro... So much wow... Teach me your ways master.

On a more serious note, I have done quite some ratting in lowsec for tags and encountered my share of cloaky cynoes. Do you want to know how I manage not to get caught? I fly fast ships and just don't get tackled. It's pretty easy...

But yes, it is even easier to come to the forums and whine.


Until you go use a Vargur to do stuff in low sec you are just a wannabe whiner trying to talk big on the forums, pathetic...


I use carriers to PvE in lowsec regularly. I give zero ***** about a neutral in local.

I'm literally "camped" 24/7 by people but oddly I am not put off by this.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#93 - 2016-05-29 09:09:44 UTC
Some afk camper isn't preventing you from doing anything. He can't even do jack **** because, you know, he's afk.

The only problem here is you being a risk-averse carebear being frightened of a imaginary threat that most likely isn't even paying any attention at all.

There are enough counters to this, so instead of crying that you can't rat in perfect safety, how about you use your brain and turn that entire thing into a trap for the hunter.
Well, it's obvious that you're too much of a risk-averse bear to do that, so you'll instead cry on the forums for CCP to remove basically the only remaining threat you have (that in most cases literally isn't even a threat beyond a imaginary one), so you can carebear in peace and perfect safety.


I sincerely hope you lose all your sov, all your stuff and are left with absolutely ******* nothing. If you can't take the risk, play another game that's more up your alley. Hello Kitty Online perhaps.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#94 - 2016-05-29 13:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


I use carriers to PvE in lowsec regularly. I give zero ***** about a neutral in local.

I'm literally "camped" 24/7 by people but oddly I am not put off by this.


Gold star to you, if you read this thread you will notice that I have used carriers in 0.0 and I have also done this when camped, it is however not the full story and you know it, the OP said he was not supported in his TZ, which means he needs to find a more suitable alliance to be honest.

At the time I did this in a carrier I had two other carriers with me and a couple of other people ready to come in, we also knew what we would face, we judged the three carriers would be too much for what they could hit us with which proved right by the fact they did not. However the bets were then off when they brought a Super in range.

Now we get deeper into it, who are you blue with, who are around you and where is your enemy focussed, all these questions and more come to mind from a simple, I am literally camped 24/7 and I give zero whatevers. Idiotic people will just go parrot fashion oh the OP is whining, but more deep and meaningful people will think deeper on where your superiority comes from.

There is so much chest beating and throw away one liners on the Eve forums and while I know of your corp and alliance and I know they are very good, you need to tell a bit more about who your facing and what you could escalate too before you can get any respect from me for that one liner. Question, are you still ratting with Initiative in Syndicate, and if so what can you counter with, answers on a postcard...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#95 - 2016-05-29 13:58:04 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Some afk camper isn't preventing you from doing anything. He can't even do jack **** because, you know, he's afk.

The only problem here is you being a risk-averse carebear being frightened of a imaginary threat that most likely isn't even paying any attention at all.

There are enough counters to this, so instead of crying that you can't rat in perfect safety, how about you use your brain and turn that entire thing into a trap for the hunter.
Well, it's obvious that you're too much of a risk-averse bear to do that, so you'll instead cry on the forums for CCP to remove basically the only remaining threat you have (that in most cases literally isn't even a threat beyond a imaginary one), so you can carebear in peace and perfect safety.


I sincerely hope you lose all your sov, all your stuff and are left with absolutely ******* nothing. If you can't take the risk, play another game that's more up your alley. Hello Kitty Online perhaps.


How do you know he is AFK? Do you have his IP address, do you have someone watching his house, do you know he is at work etc. ad nauseam... How can you hunt someone who is asleep or at work, again answers on a postcard.

He is in 0.0 so by definition he is not risk averse.

Sorry but you are just chanting a HTFU mantra...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
AFK Cloaker
Matari Exodus
#96 - 2016-05-29 15:38:06 UTC
.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#97 - 2016-05-29 18:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Linus Gorp
Dracvlad wrote:
He is in 0.0 so by definition he is not risk averse.

Because 0.0 is so incredibly dangerous, right? With all those intel bots, intel channels, ratting bots, more bots, did I mention bots?, oh and bots. Let's not forget all the instant free intel, most of which is provided by bots.

0.0 is the safest space in New Eden. In highsec you can get ganked without warning. In 0.0 you already see them coming 10 jumps out.

As for the rest of your post, may I advise you use your brain to understand the answer that I gave in my previous post?

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
Syrix Death
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2016-05-29 19:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrix Death
Linus Gorp wrote:
In 0.0 you already see them coming 10 jumps out.

lol that's a bad intel. If there is a hostile like 10jumps out they already prealign their nullbear gear. They see hostile like 20 or more jumps out.

It got indeed pretty difficult catching nullbears. One need to invest a lot of effort into hunting, like logoffskies or rolling wh's. It would be rly nice if ccp reworks nullsecs local.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#99 - 2016-05-29 20:37:34 UTC
Linus Gorp wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
He is in 0.0 so by definition he is not risk averse.

Because 0.0 is so incredibly dangerous, right? With all those intel bots, intel channels, ratting bots, more bots, did I mention bots?, oh and bots. Let's not forget all the instant free intel, most of which is provided by bots.

0.0 is the safest space in New Eden. In highsec you can get ganked without warning. In 0.0 you already see them coming 10 jumps out.

As for the rest of your post, may I advise you use your brain to understand the answer that I gave in my previous post?


Well shows how much you know about 0.0, not all space is massive blue lists, you also have WH's giving access to your systems and of course some of us operate in NPC 0.0 in small groups. Hisec has different dangers.

Still wondering how you can be so definite that they are AFK?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#100 - 2016-05-29 20:41:04 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Well shows how much you know about 0.0, not all space is massive blue lists, you also have WH's giving access to your systems and of course some of us operate in NPC 0.0 in small groups.

Have a look at the OPs alliance.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.