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1st Phase Of Citadel Destruction :(
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#41 - 2016-05-18 06:42:35 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
TheDamned wrote:
a hoe away from home

hahaha, i love typos Big smile



Freudian is best

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#42 - 2016-05-18 06:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
helana Tsero wrote:
The problem is that CCP have balanced citadels for capital supported large fleet vs large fleet combat in nullsec / lowsec.

That's why as a small / medium sized corp in high sec / wormholes your screwed if you deploy a citadel.


Honestly the problem is they called them ''Citadels" because that word gives the impression that you are buying a fortress. and back in medieval times a citadel could be defended by the few against the many. That is not the case for EVE's citadels.

They should have called them ''Honey Pots'' because they are good at enticing larger size groups to come together and fight for the purposes of blowing up / defending a citadel.


Probably that was the design goal. Of course it means that Citadels are useless to anybody who doesn't belongs to a large sized group outside of highsec, which is a interesting thing to consider when we talk about every other structures that will be even squishier than a Citadel and will replace those nasty POSes and their inconvenient passive HP tank.

Consider it very, very seriously. CCP will spend the next two years developing exactly this kind of content: honey pots so big guys fight big guys (with any luck) whereas everybody not a big guy becomes essentially a free killmail.

There are many workouts if CCP wanted structures to be something else, but Citadel has shown the shape of things to come. The structures game is a game for big guys outside of highsec (and probably lowsec). Everybody else is going to get his gameplay rendered inviable when structures forcibly replace POSes.

And you, you all, are PAYING for this.
Sequester Risalo
German Corps of Engineers 17
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#43 - 2016-05-18 08:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sequester Risalo
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Probably that was the design goal. Of course it means that Citadels are useless to anybody who doesn't belongs to a large sized group outside of highsec, which is a interesting thing to consider when we talk about every other structures that will be even squishier than a Citadel and will replace those nasty POSes and their inconvenient passive HP tank.
[...]

There are many workouts if CCP wanted structures to be something else, but Citadel has shown the shape of things to come. The structures game is a game for big guys outside of highsec (and probably lowsec). Everybody else is going to get his gameplay rendered inviable when structures forcibly replace POSes.

And you, you all, are PAYING for this.


The design goal supposedly was:

"Everyone who wants to use a structure, does: We want structures to be as widely used as possible, by removing artificial barriers or mechanics that may be in the way. This has to stay within a reasonable risk versus reward scope, of course, and as such the most rewarding structures should always be vulnerable to attack."

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/

It has been pointed out numerous times that this design goal will not be attained with the current citadels. Don't be surprised if something that is created to be an accident waiting to happen will not be used "as widely as possible". It might well be that in the future space will be swarming with citadels so blowing one up will be as much of an achievment as popping ventures. But until then only those who don't think or don't care will put up pinatas for others to destroy.
Memphis Baas
#44 - 2016-05-18 08:21:45 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
A solo Citadel should absolutely be able to be destroyed by an attacker of course - but IMO at a cost in ships that's at least as much as the cost of the Citadel.


Where do you guys get these ideas?

I mean, you're requesting that every citadel attack is a hard-coded negative killboard balance. I mean, WTF?
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-05-18 08:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Henry Plantgenet
Memphis Baas wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
A solo Citadel should absolutely be able to be destroyed by an attacker of course - but IMO at a cost in ships that's at least as much as the cost of the Citadel.


Where do you guys get these ideas?

I mean, you're requesting that every citadel attack is a hard-coded negative killboard balance. I mean, WTF?


Because Logistics online (the ship, not the activity) is a displeasureable state of affairs that negatively affects the game. (had to use a different set of words than the single one i had in mind)
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#46 - 2016-05-18 08:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
A solo Citadel should absolutely be able to be destroyed by an attacker of course - but IMO at a cost in ships that's at least as much as the cost of the Citadel.


Where do you guys get these ideas?

I mean, you're requesting that every citadel attack is a hard-coded negative killboard balance. I mean, WTF?


Because Logistics online (the ship, not the activity) is a displeasureable state of affairs that negatively affects the game. (had to use a different set of words than the single one i had in mind)

There is a way to nerf logistics. Its called alpha damage and switching targets.
Maybe tweaking weapons for Citadels would create such opportunities in fight.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc.
#47 - 2016-05-18 08:47:17 UTC
Hire some mercs to defend it.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#48 - 2016-05-18 08:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Mercs have their own Blue donut.
If one of merc corporations is attacking citadel, there will be noone in merc donut to defend it.

The citadels first and foremost need your own corp members to be defendable. That is all.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#49 - 2016-05-18 08:55:27 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Mercs have their own Blue donut.
If one of merc corporations is attacking citadel, there will be noone in merc donut to defend it.

there are outliers ,
we would readily attack other mercs,
pirat dont give two ****s who they go to war with but they arent good for anything more than a handful of jumps from amarr.

hell even those that are blued up will shoot eachother, they just charge extra

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#50 - 2016-05-18 09:31:46 UTC
Mercenaries are not, and have not ever been, a real substitute for your own forces if your goal is to have a thing forever.

We are a stop-gap, or useful for people without a persistent need for their own power. There are multiple examples of people who've tried to rely on mercenary forces to empire-build in highsec and it has generally ended in disaster for them.

If you intend to use mercenaries to protect your citadel make sure you don't put the thing somewhere that paints a giant target on you, source your mercenaries before you anchor the thing, set the reinforcement timers for times appropriate for defense rather than to be as inconvenient for the majority of the playerbase as possible (protip: that makes it hard to defend too) and for the love of christ have a contingency plan for when the people you hired don't show up.
Varathius
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2016-05-18 09:53:30 UTC
Ships, structures, etc. in eve serve only one purpose: To be blown up. Think about it before you set up the next one.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2016-05-18 09:57:02 UTC
Is this in hisec, lowsec, null or WH?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#53 - 2016-05-18 10:01:03 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Is this in hisec, lowsec, null or WH?

its in Stegette, Dark-Rising are wailing on it

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#54 - 2016-05-18 10:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sustrai Aditua
TheDamned wrote:
Its a sad day for us lowly industry types as I watched our Astrahus shields be blown through in about 45 minutes.
2 missile launchers, ECM, painter and weapon disruptor did absolutely nothing in defense of the not to mention the fighter dron squadrons that posed no threat as they were zerged by the aggressing fleets drones.

It was so bad it was comical honestly as the Citadel was completely useless in defending itself.

I'm not complaining, just letting everyone know that is considering setting one of these up that, its pointless unless you have a huge alliance to defend it. Otherwise, it wont even be able to blow up a single ship of the fleet has more than 2 Logis.

I expected this to happen when we put the thing up but I thought I would at least have fun blowing up a few ships as the Citadel was being worked over. Nope. hah!

Tomorrow I will get to watch our armor be dismantled. :(

You also can't changed fittings at all after the first phase either so no strategy changes. Just sit and watch it go boom!

I will say, the guys that Wardecced us know what they are doing.
So nice to see someone FINALLY gets the joke. Since it's on us...it sure took long enough.Cool

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#55 - 2016-05-18 10:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sustrai Aditua
Holy double post, Batman!

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Lisbeth Riraille
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2016-05-18 11:25:25 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Well, you're lucky it survived it's 15 minute setup window without a defensive fleet.

The other posters are correct, you need mobile units to defend a Citadel, no matter the size.

AOE will not save you, it will get Concord on your tush. All it takes is for one neutral to be hit and you have instant Concord. This is why you should put a neutral ALT or two in the middle of the attacking fleet, they mess up, Concord is doing your dirty work.

You should have a ton of long range ships doing mobile assaults on the enemy logistics ships. They would have to pull forces off the Citadel to go chase down your artillery, thus giving your Citadel more local punch and taking less damage. You should have dozens of warp to points where your ships can bounce around to and unleash heck from. It goes on and on.

YOU have to be the driver of the scenario. You have your space dock right there, (At least from the stuff I've seen you can dock and undock while the Citadel is under attack) they can only bring what they can bring. You see what their force makeup is and tailor yours to take advantage of their weaknesses.

You should have access to tons of drone ships to engage their drones. Your drone ships can be resupplied with drones over and over again while they have to cart more in. Their logistical train can be attacked and derailed, yours can't.

Properly defended by a small, dedicated group, you should be able to make even a large fleet pay handsomely for destroying your Citadel. I'd recommend you have a fleet of value equal to the cost of the Citadel defending it. You have to make it hurt for this 'Citadel Kill Notch' mania to abate.



I'd sign up for your Citadel Defense Force in an instant. That sounds awesome, what you described. o7
Beatrix Dacella
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-05-18 12:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Beatrix Dacella
People anchoring Citadels in high sec need to realise they are force multipliers, not their personal death star. The attackers are naturally going to bring enough reps to be able to tank the missiles and fighters (which are bugged), just the same as they would with a POS.

The neuting and ECM capabilities can also put on quite a bit of pressure. The people going on about how they should still be able to destroy some of the attackers clearly haven't considered the bigger picture, if a lone citadel could take on a fleet of roughly 20 (in the OP's scenario looking at zkill) attackers with logi support, it would be incredibly one sided if the defenders actually had a defense fleet.

Has any of these citadel complaint threads, at least for high sec citadels, had any scenario where the defenders actually, y'know, defended?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#58 - 2016-05-18 12:34:30 UTC
Nope, granted only a handfull have been hit, this one, baw are likley chewing on one or two i have now doubt (they have the three hs kills thusfarr).

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#59 - 2016-05-18 12:41:34 UTC
We're actually done on our current ones.

We got first second and third killed in highsec and first ever solo kill vs a citadel.

We'll try for first large killed in highsec, but that may end in disaster.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#60 - 2016-05-18 12:46:19 UTC
These complaint threads are inevitable, simply because of high sec. High Sec creates false beliefs (like "it's high sec, therefore I must be safe"), gives a false sense of security, and (because partially insulates players from the actions of other players) it attracts the softest players, which in turn attracts the people who like watching soft people cry.

A look at any killboard will show that most of these things that die do so outside of high sec. You don't see many people outside of high sec complaining, because unlike high sec folk, people in the rest of New Eden actually understand what EVE is and that things go pop from time to time.

As usual, the problem isn't "Citadels" (you can insert any number of words instead of citidels too, wardecs, ganking, bumping, station games etc, they all fit), The problem is and has always been "High Security Space" and the people it attracts.