Market Discussions

Hello all,

I've been a long time lurker of the MD forum that recently sold off all of his characters to trade full time. I don't play eve at all other than for the market, so why not maximize it. Anywho - I had some discussion points I wanted to point out about Citadels.

1. I find it inherently weird that these supersized sized structures are so incredibly cheap and can be placed anywhere in space. I'd consider them just about as safe if not safer than a POS and just as capable. That risk/reward ratio seems off to me.
2. Shortage of construction materials as larger citadels will slowly begin to replace outposts and obviously POS structures. These citadels are going to be centers of conflict for the next 10 years of eve and cost more than a large POS to produce in terms of PI materials. What's your analysis on that?
3. Citadel placement, can they ever truly replace Jita? I sure hope so, but i really don't see a citadel that will unify the 4 empires to become the center of the eve market. Having the 4 major trade hubs built up in the center of them is crucial to the flow of consumers and cannot be replaced. I do however see 4 separate citadels that are more centered to the current layout of pilots taking precedence over current hub locations, mostly due to the obvious benefits of fee reduction.

These are my main talking points. If you'd like to add any more ask away and I'll put them in the body of the post. I think it'd be good to get a solid post patch thread going about this documenting our predictions and the realities of this massive change.

1) they arent as defensible as POS. They cannot take out a fleet like a POS can

https://www.themittani.com/news/rise-and-fall-first-perimeter-citadel

They are relatively cheap, yes, 20b or so for the hull of the L atm, with another 20b or so if you want to fit it properly
But, if they go into 2nd reinforced, all services are turned off, so you lose your markets, your cloning, your reprocessing.

In HS they are also limited in their defenses, no AoE for example.

2) Shortage of materials? Possibly, but, remember, the citadel is the most expensive structure out of the 8. The citadel is not the only structure, it is just the first.
All the other structures are less defensive, and cheaper.

T2 salvage will be stretched if the rigs are as needed as they are in citadels, but CCP can always increase the drop rates from explo. Perhaps PI will finally attract some people to do it.

3)They are not meant to replace trade hubs. That is not the intention of them. Whilst some enterprising individuals have realised that you can sit in a citadel and buy in a hub at cheaper fees, the mass movement of goods to citadels is not really a major concern.

At present (although it will be fixed soon) there are no contracts to citadels.
There is no CREST for citadels

If it goes into 2nd reinforced, you need to cancel your orders, so you lose your broker fee. If it gets destroyed, your orders are automatically cancelled and your stuff goes into asset safety, so, you lose your broker fee again.

If the citadel owner has 1% fee, and you cancel your order due to it going into reinforced, then have to place it again in another citadel, then you have already paid as much as you would in a hub, thereby negating the benefit.

Much better to sit in a citadel, and place a ranged buy to cover the hub, so you pay 1% to have a buy order active in Jita, then when you sell the item, you pay your normal broker fee.

I'll clarify my original post to split the ideas apart further, I'm not referring to the same thing, but i see where the idea of contradiction lies and will change that to better express my thoughts.

For what citadels are they are very cheap. The base level citadel is a miniature outpost, I feel they provide a level of safety and usability that is significantly greater than the POS system we have today(IE: You get to keep your stuff on destruction,have clone bays and market systems). That is why I feel the Risk/reward is off balance. With that being said, the base citadel is expensive when compared to the POS system and will be just as expendable as we shift away from the POS/Outpost system for citadels. As time moves forward and base level citadels are nuked just as often as POSs are... this is where I feel there will be a shortage of materials.

The Clarified TLDR; they're cheap for what they are and what they do, risk/reward balance off. But are expensive compared to the previous system of structures that it is going to replace(Depletion of construction materials).

1: Depends what size, the XLs aren't cheap.
2: I analyze that I need more PI alts.
3: IMHO, whoever can get an XL down, anchored and fitted in LowSec and then turns it into *Honest Bob's New And Used Supercapital Yard And Space Emporium* will *win* EVE. If they can A: site it well and B: convince some major traders to setup shop, then yes, I can see a 'Lowsec Jita' arise. A neutral place to trade supercaps will have a ready market.

I think you might be confused by the features of citadels. The medium (Astrahus) citadel is relatively equivocal to a POS in price, but has weaker features (limitations on refining, can not moon mine, can not construct ships/modules) and has pathetically weak defence by comparison (only about 1/5 the firepower, poor webs and no auto-defence).

The large citadel can fit a market. Costs about 30B to construct (equivalent to outpost), has pathetically weak defence (compared to POS) and does not auto-defend. It also can't construct ships/modules or moon mine.

The XL citadel (Keepstar) can fit market, has better defence in low/null sec due to super weapon. Outside of super weapon its defences are pathetic vs cruiser sized ships and generally worthless in high sec space where super weapon can't be employed. It does have lots of EHP and can dock supercapitals, though. It can't construct ships or modules and can't moon mine. The XL citadel costs well over 100B to construct.

I hope this helps perspective on the relative capabilities of the different citadels.