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Hmm... Carriers

Author
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#41 - 2016-05-15 12:53:38 UTC
But they are technically ok. Enormous ship that uses swarms of fighters to fend off any approaching smaller vessels. Seems working just fine. Maybe you would have to find some other counter to that? Like bigger, nastier capital? With enormous guns?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2016-05-15 15:57:44 UTC
Nah. Just fly a shuttle loaded to the brim with explosives in the docking bay.

"it's an older code but it checks out. I was about to clear them Sir"
Magnus Rexana
Red Phoenix Rising
Elementium Alliance
#43 - 2016-05-15 16:31:10 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
But they are technically ok. Enormous ship that uses swarms of fighters to fend off any approaching smaller vessels. Seems working just fine. Maybe you would have to find some other counter to that? Like bigger, nastier capital? With enormous guns?


Careful. I hear logic isn't openly welcomed on the internet.

Being said, has anyone put a carrier up against a dread yet? Since the patch, I mean. 1v1 slugfest.
Adrienne Cesaille
Deflagration
#44 - 2016-05-16 07:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrienne Cesaille
Nana Skalski wrote:
But they are technically ok. Enormous ship that uses swarms of fighters to fend off any approaching smaller vessels. Seems working just fine. Maybe you would have to find some other counter to that? Like bigger, nastier capital? With enormous guns?


Magnus Rexana wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
But they are technically ok. Enormous ship that uses swarms of fighters to fend off any approaching smaller vessels. Seems working just fine. Maybe you would have to find some other counter to that? Like bigger, nastier capital? With enormous guns?


Careful. I hear logic isn't openly welcomed on the internet.

Being said, has anyone put a carrier up against a dread yet? Since the patch, I mean. 1v1 slugfest.





So the only counter besides massed swarms of sub caps should be caps?

How is that good for the game? Why not return to the times where Battleships plunked out frigates with ease? Eve spent years solving the issue of frigates and cruisers being utter crap and at the total mercy of the battleship king, but now it's totally cool for caps to rule everything?

The arguement back than was that battleships cost a lot more isk than frigates so should be able to blow 'em apart with ease
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#45 - 2016-05-16 07:56:03 UTC
Adrienne Cesaille wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
But they are technically ok. Enormous ship that uses swarms of fighters to fend off any approaching smaller vessels. Seems working just fine. Maybe you would have to find some other counter to that? Like bigger, nastier capital? With enormous guns?


Magnus Rexana wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
But they are technically ok. Enormous ship that uses swarms of fighters to fend off any approaching smaller vessels. Seems working just fine. Maybe you would have to find some other counter to that? Like bigger, nastier capital? With enormous guns?


Careful. I hear logic isn't openly welcomed on the internet.

Being said, has anyone put a carrier up against a dread yet? Since the patch, I mean. 1v1 slugfest.


So the only counter besides massed swarms of sub caps should be caps?

How is that good for the game? Why not return to the times where Battleships plunked out frigates with ease? Eve spent years solving the issue of frigates and cruisers being utter crap and at the total mercy of the battleship king, but now it's totally cool for caps to rule everything?

The arguement back than was that battleships cost a lot more isk than frigates so should be able to blow 'em apart with ease


First of all before we start, battleships have too low an EHP in this game, so onto the subject matter, you can kill the fighters, they are rather squishy and a carrier cannot carry an unlimited supply. People have got used to the lazy thing of coming in on a carrier killing it without losing a ship and using kitchen sink type fleets, now they have real risk of losing stuff and now they have to use the correct fleet composition, seriously can you stop whining and up your game. Carriers are now difficult to kill and need to be dealt with in a thoughtful way with sub caps or you drop dreads on them once you have them pointed.

The balance is now right in my opinion, people are killing carriers in sub caps, they are just using their noddles, we sat down and assessed what we can and cannot do with carriers, we also looked at what we needed to kill one or two, it is not terribly difficult if you put your mind on it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#46 - 2016-05-16 09:32:38 UTC
The Networked Sensor Array does have drawbacks. It is cap heavy and you can't use any mid-slot ewar while it is active.

I think carriers needed a buff given the nerf to their remote repping capability. The new gameplay is very active - great fun.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Anthar Thebess
#47 - 2016-05-16 10:07:29 UTC
Yes new carriers are fun.
You simply need to kill fighters before killing carrier.


Maybe assault ships could get a role?
Reduce damage from other ships to fighters, but greatly increase damage dealt by assault frigates.
This needs to have also balance, so assault frigates need to be much more vulnerable to anti fighters.


Still fighters are dying quite easy - sometimes multiple wings to a single cruiser - after checking few pages of kills/looses there is no need for any balance here as more fighters are dying than subcaps they are killing.

Fighers are dying to battleships, multiple wings to auto cannon machariels :
https://zkillboard.com/related/30004923/201605151300/

Where there is problem again?
That a fighters can kill unsupported frigate or interdictor?
What is wrong with this?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#48 - 2016-05-16 14:01:37 UTC
Sentamon wrote:


It's great that carriers can defend themselves from subcaps now, but when you can pop in out of nowhere and wreck the field with them then you've got a problem.

After years of tiercide, tears are back with a vengeance.


FYP.

tiericide is fixing the pointlessness of meta 1-3 modules that no one ever uses. It has nothing to do with balancing large ships vs. small ones.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Milostiev
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2016-06-01 06:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Milostiev
d0cTeR9 wrote:
I can't believe people still haven't figured it out...

A carrier fitted with the new network sensor array cannot use any ewar (or it instantly uses up all of the carrier's cap).
Answer to solo fast locking carriers: You can warp away, burn back to gate, etc.

Fighters are quite easy to kill, a solo carrier can't rep them unless they are pulled back into the fighter bay. Also carriers no longer carry drones, so they have 2 set of fighters (noob carriers have less), kill those and they now have ZERO dps.

Anti frigate/drone fighters can point you... but they can't touch your afterburner or web you. Simply deagress and leave.

99% of the time a solo carrier is to slow to engage and hold you, simply leave. No one forces you to engage it and die like an idiot. It also makes a LOT of sense for a small gang of frigates/cruisers to NOT pick a fight with a carrier (that's how it was for 10+ years, until a few years ago when carriers and fighters were castrated).

So far, looking at killboards, people dying to solo carriers CHOSE to engage it instead of leaving and then die. Well geniuses... don't engage it. That goes for any other pvp engagement (and in those, most of the time you are forced to engage). I spotted a OP of another 'nerf carrier thread' and on his killboard it showed he engaged a single carrier, chose to stay in the area to get pointed by the fighters and then die, instead of simply burning back to the gate and jumping OR warping away (there was no bubble there too!).

Players are making bad decisions and then are blaming carriers as being OP, what a joke. Oh and the guy spamming all those threads, dude you got rekt against a dozen players on a gate camp and they happened to have a carrier. Cry moar about carriers plz...


To abstain from pejoratives, i'll just say that you are horribly wrong.
When the patch hit i used the carrier on my alt to blap ppl as they were undocking and docking (did not use a NSA at the time).
An alliance m8 almost single handedly blapped a docking Orca (4x dda Nidhoggur with t2 fighters) that was 50k away .... his fighters do 12km/s.

I've been recently flying a slasher, 3.75km/s without overload, lowest sig in the game, and does 5.3-5.4km/s with overload.
99% of the time, when jumping into a gatecamp, my first mwd cycle is an overload mwd cycle.

I roamed with a friend in drone regions, gate bubble with 12-15 large t2 bubbles, 60-65k from gate you are totally bubbled.
I warp to it after checking the system, archon lands on perch, 250k above gate.
Launches Templar I's, 3 wings, we mwd to gate ..... i jumped with fighters 15k from me, if he had been faster on spamming the rocket salvo, i would have died because at those speeds, the server would have probably processed his order of attack before my order to jump on next tick.

I jumped into Stain, haven't been around in a while there.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/54243347/
I died 6k from gate, my mwd did not die (was not scrammed), 1st mwd cycle was overloaded. Between acceleration and the fact that it was a regular gate, must have taken 4s .... i know i got the notification of loss at 7-8k from gate, travelled a little bit more with capsule ejected and was in pod at 6k from gate.
Nyx was on a citadel, over 1000k away.

I jumped into ceptor gangs before, i jumped into arty svipuls and good action/thinking saves you most of the times.
I jumped into a 720mm bradsword with a sabre going almost 4km/s and i got out in a sliver of hull.
First cycle of mwd was overloaded, i got scrammed at 22-24, inertia carried me to 37 where point dropped, spammed mwd, and i managed to get to range with 160 hull points.

Instalock t3d's, overpowered t3d's, 40k scrams, and now instalock carriers with fantastic application.
This game is centered on moving through certain areas, stargates. Chokepoints exist in most null sec regions as most are pipe like, which are easily seen if you look at the maps (stargates in general are moving areas, but i'm talking of constellation entrances).
The game in the past 4 months has had a lot of instalock death things added to it, that are also more or less mobile who camp these points.

When you roam solo or in small gang you assume certain risks, you figure out with time that unless you do the +1 scout and also booster thing, it's just a matter of time before you jump into something you can't handle.
You get better, but you can never get rid of this, it happens so you accept it bill for doing this.
But this has horrible pushed the probability of something happening upwards.
So much so, that the highs you get from a good fight, become rarer and rarer, and soon even more so as this kind of camping and intervention (with a carrier) proliferates.

Counter, loggoffski .... get used to it.
You can't drop them because it's their space, you are far from home and they are practically perma aligned or within the loving embrace of a citadel.
I can't believe that ppl with roots in Snigg and solo pvp (kil2) have done something like this to the small roaming gang/solo aspect of the game.
Milostiev
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2016-06-01 07:14:14 UTC
A good fix (in my opinion), would be this :
- give carriers a resistance to sensor damps for long range, if they can be separated between scan res damps and range damps
- do not allow the launch of fighters from carriers within dock range of citadel.
- put the bubble drag range to 900km instead of 1000km
- top out scan res of carriers at around 600 scan res. You can't dissalow the use of sebo's with NSA because i assume you have to add new coding to the game and it would make carriers vulnerable to ECM.
So give NSA a flat 300% bonus to scan res, which means that the scan res you get with sebos and whatever is multiplied by 4.
Gives enough time to lock things fast, and to also apply damage.
- change regular fighters rocket damage sig from 100m to 240m, make them full anti-bc weapons.
There is a fighter that rips frigates apart, it's called a space superiority fighter, with the application of the rocket salvo, at the very least this infringes on it's role.
The precision of the strike can be reduced to 170-180 (off the top of my head) by the use of omnidirectionals with precision scripts.
- finally, it's pathetically easy to get 12km/s on fighters. this is just plain wrong.
But because of the grid size, you need that speed to do stuff, so 2 choices.
Cycle of 40s but half the speed, with a 1min 20s cooldown, or 4 cycles of 10s every 2min, to be used at discretion (this needs some huge testing obviously).

This way the carriers preserve their abilities, they get a slight nerf in the PVE arena, but they are not soloomgwtfpwnmobiles of death, mobile death stars for the small gang roamers.
And if they have anti-tackler fighters, they can deal with those this way.

Katherine Gray
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-06-02 16:47:39 UTC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R84Pk847waE

This shows the problem for ppl still defending carriers.
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2016-06-02 20:53:30 UTC
Carrier were never weak. CCP woke up one day six years ago and said, BIG FIGHTS GETS US ATTENTION, LETS SH*** ON SMALL CORPS AND SMALL GANG PVP AND DESTROY THE IDEA. Lets Buff carriers and let the big corps have large fights with tons of carriers and be featured on some duuduu site. So what if small gang pvp is dududed. duuu duu duu, axe ccp rise and the fat hobit who stole my golden ring, i am the dragon, but i cant breathe fire, duu duu.
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#53 - 2016-06-03 01:27:44 UTC
I <3 carriers.

Almost as much as I <3 all the tears on all these threads about carriers.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#54 - 2016-06-03 06:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Katherine Gray wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R84Pk847waE

This shows the problem for ppl still defending carriers.


Well yes it enables people to pick off people coming through gates, what I noticed was that they paired this with a Svipul for fast lock after the first two kills. Now just take that setup and think how people were doing that before, with Tornadoes and Oracles at optimal. Now of course their carrier is sitting way off which makes them a lot safer and more effective, especially as the BC's could miss, the fighters don't seem to. I noted that the Carrier had a sensor booster in addition to the Networked Sensor Array and I think they had OGB too.

So I agree that gate camps using carriers with this sensor array and a Svipul are very very effective and perhaps OP, however for what I call gate control in sov 0.0 this is a good thing. Not so much in low sec especially faction warfare areas. I rather like the idea of being able to dead zone your border systems. Doesn't this come back to the principal of having to have friends instead of roaming around solo or in very small groups. To be honest the ability to protect your borders is key to making space worth while. But this changes things quite a lot, because gate camps are now too damn effective in areas where before they were not, ouch and that hurts.

What are the options for CCP, well perhaps that Network Sensor array module is too OP, and that CCP will need to adjust it so that there has to be a observatory stucture in space that enables that level of performance. I hope that they go that way, because a group like that should not be able to just set up a gate camp in a low sec system like that and get such easy kills without a bit more effort and putting something at risk to get those kills.

What this does show however which we have seen so often is that certain game play gets destroyed by changes, I have lost game play options due to changes in mechanics, you just have to accept and move on or change the way you do things.

My defence of the carriers was more focussed on their ability to defeat small gangs which get on top of them as compared to previously when they would just die, the carrier will still die if people know what they are doing and have the counters like ECM for the fighters.

EDIT: Looking at that video they manually clicked the fighters in the first couple of scenes but afterwards it seems that they were using something to do it for them, because all the icons would just act as if clicked for all three squadrons. Perhaps he has mapped certain keys to enable that or something else? EDIT 2 Something else basically...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#55 - 2016-06-03 09:29:05 UTC
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