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Understanding Cloaking
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Ashilta
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#1 - 2016-05-16 07:35:02 UTC
Morning,

Yesterday, one of my toons lost a cloaked ship and I can't figure out how. They were cloaked in a deep safe, which had been created some time ago by warping between two celestials, dropping a bookmark, warping somewhere else, warping to the original bookmark, and then warping between the bookmarks to create a third and final bookmark. This way, I greatly reduce the risk of being found 'accidentally'.

So yesterday, I leave my ship cloaked in the deep safe and I go to have dinner. I come back and realise that my ship is lost and I am in station. Is there some sort of arbitrary time-out that means that my cloaking device will deactivate itself? I find it improbable that I was found, but is it possible that the guy that caught me was randomly warping around the system and happened to decloak me, thus allowing the opportunity for me to be probed? Or am I misunderstanding some other odd behaviour?

Cheers!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2 - 2016-05-16 07:49:26 UTC
Ashilta wrote:
Morning,

Yesterday, one of my toons lost a cloaked ship and I can't figure out how. They were cloaked in a deep safe, which had been created some time ago by warping between two celestials, dropping a bookmark, warping somewhere else, warping to the original bookmark, and then warping between the bookmarks to create a third and final bookmark. This way, I greatly reduce the risk of being found 'accidentally'.

So yesterday, I leave my ship cloaked in the deep safe and I go to have dinner. I come back and realise that my ship is lost and I am in station. Is there some sort of arbitrary time-out that means that my cloaking device will deactivate itself? I find it improbable that I was found, but is it possible that the guy that caught me was randomly warping around the system and happened to decloak me, thus allowing the opportunity for me to be probed? Or am I misunderstanding some other odd behaviour?

Cheers!


Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing. Because of this you should at the end burn away in some random direction say about 500km and then set the final BM or as a matter of course just burn in a random direction after you have landed when you go AFK so that you reduce your risk of being caught as I described. I assume that you did not do either of the last two steps.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#3 - 2016-05-16 08:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Krevnos
One of my corp mates reported yesterday that a bug was causing them to de-cloak randomly on their scouting character while sitting in their safe spot. Apparently it happened to them twice during the day.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#4 - 2016-05-16 08:02:27 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
One of my corp mates reported yesterday that a bug was causing them to de-cloak randomly on their scouting character. Apparently it happened to them twice during the day.


I hope that happens when they stay cloaked in the same system 24/7 as a matter of course Big smileEvilTwistedLol

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#5 - 2016-05-16 08:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?
Ashilta
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#6 - 2016-05-16 08:18:45 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
One of my corp mates reported yesterday that a bug was causing them to de-cloak randomly on their scouting character while sitting in their safe spot. Apparently it happened to them twice during the day.


Interesting, OK. I'll petition it, but I wager their logs show nothing...
Black Pedro
Mine.
#7 - 2016-05-16 08:19:24 UTC
Ashilta wrote:
Morning,

Yesterday, one of my toons lost a cloaked ship and I can't figure out how. They were cloaked in a deep safe, which had been created some time ago by warping between two celestials, dropping a bookmark, warping somewhere else, warping to the original bookmark, and then warping between the bookmarks to create a third and final bookmark. This way, I greatly reduce the risk of being found 'accidentally'.

So yesterday, I leave my ship cloaked in the deep safe and I go to have dinner. I come back and realise that my ship is lost and I am in station. Is there some sort of arbitrary time-out that means that my cloaking device will deactivate itself? I find it improbable that I was found, but is it possible that the guy that caught me was randomly warping around the system and happened to decloak me, thus allowing the opportunity for me to be probed? Or am I misunderstanding some other odd behaviour?

Cheers!
You are not misunderstanding anything. You should have been completely safe. Either you left the computer and were not cloaked as you believe, or there is some sort of bug at work here.

File a petition and CCP should (eventually) get to the bottom of it by looking at the logs.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#8 - 2016-05-16 08:20:55 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?


We have done it to someone...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Wanda Fayne
#9 - 2016-05-16 08:21:45 UTC
There are things that will cause decloaking, without an object being within the cloaking restriction. Like an anomally or site spawning or despawning, for example. With the new larger grid sizes, it is quite possible to be within range of the affect of one of these. And you won't even see it on Dscan (it will be in your Probing window, or brackets if you have them enabled for that).

If it happens again, make note of the time and location and file a bug report.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#10 - 2016-05-16 08:29:33 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?


We have done it to someone...

By warping between 2 safes to create a third out of any direct warp path?

I don't believe you.
Wanda Fayne
#11 - 2016-05-16 08:30:11 UTC
Also, afk in space should have risk, cloaked or not.P

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Black Pedro
Mine.
#12 - 2016-05-16 08:38:07 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
There are things that will cause decloaking, without an object being within the cloaking restriction. Like an anomally or site spawning or despawning, for example. With the new larger grid sizes, it is quite possible to be within range of the affect of one of these. And you won't even see it on Dscan (it will be in your Probing window, or brackets if you have them enabled for that)
What? No.

There is effectively no chance of being decloaked by a spawning site. If we assume a sphere of 10AU in diameter, there is a 1.8 x10E27 km3 volume of space in which a site can spawn. If a site is 10 000km in diameter on average (5.2x10E11 km3), that means by random chance there is something like a 0.00000000000000001% of having a randomly spawning site land on top of you.

Sure, site spawning isn't completely random, but even given a boost of a few orders of magnitude to account for that there is still essentially no chance of a site (and less of a ship) decloaking you if you are in a true deep safe spot.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#13 - 2016-05-16 08:38:56 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?


We have done it to someone...

By warping between 2 safes to create a third out of any direct warp path?

I don't believe you.


That's fine, I don't care whether you believe me or not, but bear in mind system layout does tend to help in the probability if that helps in understanding it. It is a real shot in the dark and very few people bother.

This case does sound like a bug rather than someone actually hunting like that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Yarosara Ruil
#14 - 2016-05-16 08:47:32 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Also, afk in space should have risk, cloaked or not.P


Just no. Cloaking is the ultimate line of defense. Second to being inside a Force Field or tethered to a Citadel, having your ship cloaked will give you the ultimate protection until your cloak drops. Getting the cloak to drop though, now that's the tricky part and there are ways of getting it down using shrewd tactics.

Now, I'm sure the person that killed Ashiita's alt is a reasonable fellow and he could give him the rundown on how exactly he killed his ship, and the circumstances behind that kill. Because there's nothing worse than a compromised safespot, specially if you have the lousy habit of leaving mobile depots in them.
Terquil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-05-16 09:07:08 UTC
You just can't decloak someone who made a third safe between two other safes. Nope. Not gonna happen. If someone says so I want proof or it didn't happen and they just talk BS.

File a petition. Either you weren't cloaked or some bug.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#16 - 2016-05-16 09:12:49 UTC
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#17 - 2016-05-16 09:22:01 UTC
Terquil wrote:
You just can't decloak someone who made a third safe between two other safes. Nope. Not gonna happen. If someone says so I want proof or it didn't happen and they just talk BS.

File a petition. Either you weren't cloaked or some bug.


The key word here is celestial, creating a safe between two celestial's then from that safe creating another safe from that BM to another celestial. Stop being stupid and read what I said, if the calibre of Eve players has gone down to such a level that they don't understand what I said then that is your failure to read it and failure to understand it. Sometimes the system layout makes it very easy to work out what a lazy player would use.

He said warping somewhere else, if that had been another celestial then he could have been found by a real hunter with attitude, but if it was another BM then no he would not have been decloaked by someone doing what I described. Now use your brain and think it through, it is not rocket science, jeeez....

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#18 - 2016-05-16 09:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Dracvlad wrote:
Terquil wrote:
You just can't decloak someone who made a third safe between two other safes. Nope. Not gonna happen. If someone says so I want proof or it didn't happen and they just talk BS.

File a petition. Either you weren't cloaked or some bug.


The key word here is celestial, creating a safe between two celestial's then from that safe creating another safe from that BM to another celestial. Stop being stupid and read what I said, if the calibre of Eve players has gone down to such a level that they don't understand what I said then that is your failure to read it and failure to understand it. Sometimes the system layout makes it very easy to work out what a lazy player would use.

He said warping somewhere else, if that had been another celestial then he could have been found by a real hunter with attitude, but if it was another BM then no he would not have been decloaked by someone doing what I described. Now use your brain and think it through, it is not rocket science, jeeez....

I think you may have misunderstood the OP here Drac.

Quote:
...so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing.

This is not correct.
Hawke Frost
#19 - 2016-05-16 09:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hawke Frost
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood the OP here Drac.


Indeed, per OP this is not some basic "between 2 celestials" kind of SS, it's 3 layers deep. Even the basic one I don't believe unless he was at an obvious distance like 100, 150km or so, generally I'd say that if this happens and you're in an alliance fleet that you have a spy you should be looking out for.

In this specific case, no idea. I've not noticed any irregularities with cloaks lately.


- edit -

I missed that last part... lol
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#20 - 2016-05-16 10:36:14 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Terquil wrote:
You just can't decloak someone who made a third safe between two other safes. Nope. Not gonna happen. If someone says so I want proof or it didn't happen and they just talk BS.

File a petition. Either you weren't cloaked or some bug.


The key word here is celestial, creating a safe between two celestial's then from that safe creating another safe from that BM to another celestial. Stop being stupid and read what I said, if the calibre of Eve players has gone down to such a level that they don't understand what I said then that is your failure to read it and failure to understand it. Sometimes the system layout makes it very easy to work out what a lazy player would use.

He said warping somewhere else, if that had been another celestial then he could have been found by a real hunter with attitude, but if it was another BM then no he would not have been decloaked by someone doing what I described. Now use your brain and think it through, it is not rocket science, jeeez....

I think you may have misunderstood the OP here Drac.

Quote:
...so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing.

This is not correct.


That last quote is wrong it is the one second ticks that are important.

And as for the OP what did he mean by deep safe, to me a deep safe is one of the old style interceptor log off ones, and not one that is away from celestial's which people refer to now as deep safe. That he said between two celestial's at the start made me think it was not the old deep safe. I was not trying to be a smart ass, just wanting to make sure that if it was what I described that he did not caught again. The person I caught was two deep not three.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
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