Wormholes

I've seen alot of people really complaining about the upcoming citadel changes, regarding to wh-space and i don't really see why, since all arguments that brought up are already valid today.

I got the feeling alot of people that are complainin were not part of an eviction or were not evicted yet, but just have knowledge about it by reading.

First: If a corp wants to evict you. They will succeed, no matter if you have a citadel, one POS, 15 POS's, and so on. Their preperation is all that matters and if they prepare good, have valid information about you, they will come, pre- or post-citadel expansion.

Second: As alot of people stated, right now the time of beeing evicted is way more straight and unpredictable then it will be with citadels. Right now the attackers have the upper hand by deciding when they want to come. If you're not at home, as at work, beeing one week on vacation with your family and cannot check for anything, they come, set it into RF and you cannot do **** about it. You will be able to get your ships out ... at least out of the SMA; but everything else is already lost or unreachable, unless they make a major mistake when the tower comes out of RF and they don't attack anymore.

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers. So the forces that are currently needed are way smaller, so even smaller gangs could possibly attack most towers in most systems. Most people don't set up huge deathstar-towers and some don't have any defenses at all. The citadel already comes with a pre-defined slot layout that cries for "give me weapons".

And yeah ... that actually is everything. Not to mention what many said ... you can set your invul-timer, stuff would be lost already right now and 48h >> 36-or-something-hours that are currently needed til you can end the presence of the victims-tower.


All the other things. Seriously. Rolling wormholes with that mass/distance thing. If you still roll with an orca ... sorry thats outdated by now, almost nobody is doing it, unless they bait others into a fleet that is waiting cloaked. Battleships even 13km away spawning with an MWD can usually get back very fast, or with higgs, can warp in almost no time. AND even if you manage to jump back ... if someone is waiting for you on either one or the other site and the wh is not verge or won't close, they just follow and scram you on the site, whereever you will be and kill you. 0 km or 20km would not make a difference. And even though i never made it and i just saw it ONE time, many ppl use yachts, as they are (as long as not beeing changed) really hard to catch.

And wh-mass. Also stated, supers won't come into wh's, wh mass increase only to have possible 1-2 normal caps that can change between LS/NS/C6/C5 ...

All those things affect everyone in the same way. The one that did not get affected yet, won't get affected as well when citadels come out. And only the least part will see a change. And that will be the ones that YES live in a c5 or c6 only there for ratting with 5 people. But if you could not defend your wormhole in a proper way before patch, why should it be easier after that.


Pinky

Well ... but lets assume DPS is higher or lower, or equal to current POS's. If someone attacks you, they thought about it before, what they can expect. If they manage to attack a death-star-like POS, with tons of backup modules, and even active people inside, but still limited CPU/PG as they can just bring stuff online when others is gone, AND also effects around the wormhole and the tower itself, they probably brought enough guardians, long-range stuff or can trick the tower by running enough small-sized ships with high velocity that pos guns will never hit. So whatever such a group is about to face that is about to evict you, they adapt to the situation. And the same will come to citadels.

And i still don't see the "everything's lost"-part. What is the difference to now? Will you have MORE stuff in the citadels that can drop? More ships then in your current SMA? More modules in your CHA? ... If people blow up your SMA, they get all your ships and for you everything is lost, same goes for CHA, PHA, all arrays around ... cans, freight containers. In short terms ... If they win, you loose ... and they get all that stuff. WHY ... should it be different in a citadel?

You guys are such nubs. Your Deathstar POS with tons of backups is horribly vulnerable if unmanned (and, who attacks manned defenses for evictions anyway?). All you need to do is use Trashct Doctrine and it doesn't really matter what your defenses are- deathstar, dickstar, dullstar, dampstar*...it's all going down.

The advantage of Trashcats is, you just attack the stick and ignore the "defenses". This lets you not only attack in utter and hilarious safety, but lets you avoid RFing all the guns and dissy's and EWAR modules. You can take a fully kitted out deathstar with 4 BS and 2 Guards (and 40 tractors).

Your masses and masses of offline guns? Worthless to prevent a RF that doesn't suit you. Midweek 2 a.m. your time sucks. Plus, the more guns you have anchored ready to go, the bigger the loot pinata.

Citadels, because they are only vulnerable when you want them to be, and the guns don't work without human intervention, are going to be much more dangerous than an unmanned POS. Additionally, if the Medium is circa 650M it's not much more expensive than a tricked out large POS at the moment. So as long as you keep your loot pile under reasonable control, it's a major step forward in loot security and cost effectiveness for all corporations.

Finally, the number of people who understand POS mechanics well is....very small. If you haven't grokked Trashcats, you haven't grokked why you want citadels. Its terribly broken, I admit, and I wubs them, but....


* - caveat. if you have 80 sensor damps online, things can get skwerly for an attacker, even with Trashcats. But a 24 ECM dickstar? EZPZ.

The biggest lost opportunity for CCP was to not make all the small frigate wormholes originate in shattered systems

Is there a change in the profit motive for attacking/evicting someone with the citadel release?

Let's clarify the ops point. Because why not.

The issue is that citadels are vulnerable and warrant attack, vs the current pos system setup.

People don't like shooting pos's because of.. Two reasons. The first is the pos shield itself. This removes the capability of close range ammo from hitting it (no blaster talos, etc)

The other is that pos's take a bigger beating. A small gang can attack a citadel and win. A small gang isn't killing a pos without a dread dropping on it for times sake.

This will hurt small gangs a ton in Wspace because small gangs would generally range around 3 to 6 a night, not 30 to 50 a night. It's just easier to siege a citadel than it is a pos.

Now Wspace don't like pos's. We hate setting them up, managing them, assigning roles, etc. we generally don't like citadels because of their vulnerability to virtually any fleet setup. Have a few guns and 3 logi, go siege a citadel and generate a fight. That's the intial thought but for defense purposes, this will create more mega groups and alliances in Wspace. This also gives the pvp people easy pve fodder to evict... Potentially that is as a bunch are moving out.

Expect more people to leave Wspace when t3's go under the knife. Pve will die a pretty violent death unless those pve entities are under the protection of a pvp entity, and that won't realistically work out well due to how Wspace is setup.

Is it worth running a pve Corp in Wspace and anchoring a citadel with as they have no deterrent power themselves.....

That's the question.

WH space is not for you. You should get (back) to nullsec. There you even have a local to be more safe.

Have you a problem with that?

edit. I must learn to behave...

They are BOB's flock in need of a shephard.

I've been playing for almost 13 years... I used to run reactions in low sec. What's your point?