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Mobile Tractor Units - Small Quality of life idea

Author
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#21 - 2016-05-15 00:03:59 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
This is not just QOL, nor is it sane. Anything that makes it quicker, more automated and easier to loot reduces the value of loot and reduces the rewards of people doing it themselves with a noctis. For example, when the noctis was introduced, the price of loot fell because it looted faster than everything else. Then shortly after the mtu was released the value of loot fell again because looting became automated.

CCP will tell you themselves they don't want mtu's to be smart. Anyone crying about QOL improvements being shot down has lack of forsight and doesn't grasp competition in a free market.



Nope. It's pure quality of life. Too much focus is put on making the game 'challenging' through QoL and interface issues. The balance you are speaking of can more properly be controlled through drop weight, cargo size, and mineral content.

I will agree that the MTU should be lootable, or at least hackable, by anyone who flies by with the same penalties as doing the same to a wreck.


It makes the mtu more competitive against a noctis. There is no way it's only QOL. Yes you can balance the two by other means as well. But that does not change the simple fact that making the mtu smarter improves its abilities against its competition.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Wanda Fayne
#22 - 2016-05-15 01:04:57 UTC
Roll

If you can't kill a MTU, you don't deserve what is inside.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#23 - 2016-05-16 04:13:47 UTC
Svipuls make great MTU hunters. Have popped many in my travels, including one where I popped the MTU and looted it while the guy returned into system, then was able to activate my cloak just as he landed on his MTU wreck.

The salty tears that was shared in local reinvigorated my dark soul...
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#24 - 2016-05-16 05:01:15 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
This is not just QOL, nor is it sane. Anything that makes it quicker, more automated and easier to loot reduces the value of loot and reduces the rewards of people doing it themselves with a noctis. For example, when the noctis was introduced, the price of loot fell because it looted faster than everything else. Then shortly after the mtu was released the value of loot fell again because looting became automated.

CCP will tell you themselves they don't want mtu's to be smart. Anyone crying about QOL improvements being shot down has lack of forsight and doesn't grasp competition in a free market.



Nope. It's pure quality of life. Too much focus is put on making the game 'challenging' through QoL and interface issues. The balance you are speaking of can more properly be controlled through drop weight, cargo size, and mineral content.

I will agree that the MTU should be lootable, or at least hackable, by anyone who flies by with the same penalties as doing the same to a wreck.


It makes the mtu more competitive against a noctis. There is no way it's only QOL. Yes you can balance the two by other means as well. But that does not change the simple fact that making the mtu smarter improves its abilities against its competition.


In no universe does it compete with a Noctis, even if you gave it a second tractor beam.

Noctis salvage, as well as loot. Their tractors are faster, and there can be as many as 8 of them, leaving the salvage functionality to drones. They carry loot back to the station.

If the mtu salvaged as well as looted so that you could just run around in an industrial and scoop completely processed battlefields, then you would have a point. The slow speed and lack of salvage ability ensure the Noctis will always be on top no matter what order it drags wrecks in.
Iain Cariaba
#25 - 2016-05-16 07:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
This is not just QOL, nor is it sane. Anything that makes it quicker, more automated and easier to loot reduces the value of loot and reduces the rewards of people doing it themselves with a noctis. For example, when the noctis was introduced, the price of loot fell because it looted faster than everything else. Then shortly after the mtu was released the value of loot fell again because looting became automated.

CCP will tell you themselves they don't want mtu's to be smart. Anyone crying about QOL improvements being shot down has lack of forsight and doesn't grasp competition in a free market.



Nope. It's pure quality of life. Too much focus is put on making the game 'challenging' through QoL and interface issues. The balance you are speaking of can more properly be controlled through drop weight, cargo size, and mineral content.

I will agree that the MTU should be lootable, or at least hackable, by anyone who flies by with the same penalties as doing the same to a wreck.


It makes the mtu more competitive against a noctis. There is no way it's only QOL. Yes you can balance the two by other means as well. But that does not change the simple fact that making the mtu smarter improves its abilities against its competition.


In no universe does it compete with a Noctis, even if you gave it a second tractor beam.

Noctis salvage, as well as loot. Their tractors are faster, and there can be as many as 8 of them, leaving the salvage functionality to drones. They carry loot back to the station.

If the mtu salvaged as well as looted so that you could just run around in an industrial and scoop completely processed battlefields, then you would have a point. The slow speed and lack of salvage ability ensure the Noctis will always be on top no matter what order it drags wrecks in.

MTU has longer tractor range.
MTU tractors/loots wrecks even when you're not on grid, or even in system.
MTU loots wrecks automatically, so you only have to empty one object.

The MTU has its place, and it fits in that place very, very well right now. When used wisely and properly, it is a massive boost to salvage efficency, and doesn't need anything added to it. Seriously though, if your idea of the proper way to use a noctis is to fit a full rack of tractor beams and rely on salvage drones to do the salvaging, I question your ability to actively compare it to the MTU. That is probably the most horribly inefficient way to use the noctis that there could be.
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#26 - 2016-05-16 10:26:05 UTC
I am not sure why people use salvage drones. Extremely inefficient at best.

Best to bring in an alt with Noctis to do salvage/looting while you move on to the next mission.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2016-05-16 13:23:42 UTC
And yet most people use mtu's rather than a noctis.

It loots while im not there, so i can run a bunch of sites, dropping mtu's at each, then run around with a hauler when im done. Why even spend the time salvaging when it's not worth very much?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#28 - 2016-05-19 04:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Agrivar
Daichi Yamato wrote:
And yet most people use mtu's rather than a noctis.

It loots while im not there, so i can run a bunch of sites, dropping mtu's at each, then run around with a hauler when im done. Why even spend the time salvaging when it's not worth very much?

I know most people use MTUs if you look at my zkillboard. I love hunting them for some reason.

Edit: Sorry about the resurrection of the necro thread. Confused the date for today. :(
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#29 - 2016-05-19 07:45:39 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
This is not just QOL, nor is it sane. Anything that makes it quicker, more automated and easier to loot reduces the value of loot and reduces the rewards of people doing it themselves with a noctis. For example, when the noctis was introduced, the price of loot fell because it looted faster than everything else. Then shortly after the mtu was released the value of loot fell again because looting became automated.

CCP will tell you themselves they don't want mtu's to be smart. Anyone crying about QOL improvements being shot down has lack of forsight and doesn't grasp competition in a free market.



Nope. It's pure quality of life. Too much focus is put on making the game 'challenging' through QoL and interface issues. The balance you are speaking of can more properly be controlled through drop weight, cargo size, and mineral content.

I will agree that the MTU should be lootable, or at least hackable, by anyone who flies by with the same penalties as doing the same to a wreck.


It makes the mtu more competitive against a noctis. There is no way it's only QOL. Yes you can balance the two by other means as well. But that does not change the simple fact that making the mtu smarter improves its abilities against its competition.


In no universe does it compete with a Noctis, even if you gave it a second tractor beam.

Noctis salvage, as well as loot. Their tractors are faster, and there can be as many as 8 of them, leaving the salvage functionality to drones. They carry loot back to the station.

If the mtu salvaged as well as looted so that you could just run around in an industrial and scoop completely processed battlefields, then you would have a point. The slow speed and lack of salvage ability ensure the Noctis will always be on top no matter what order it drags wrecks in.

MTU has longer tractor range.
MTU tractors/loots wrecks even when you're not on grid, or even in system.
MTU loots wrecks automatically, so you only have to empty one object.

The MTU has its place, and it fits in that place very, very well right now. When used wisely and properly, it is a massive boost to salvage efficency, and doesn't need anything added to it. Seriously though, if your idea of the proper way to use a noctis is to fit a full rack of tractor beams and rely on salvage drones to do the salvaging, I question your ability to actively compare it to the MTU. That is probably the most horribly inefficient way to use the noctis that there could be.



I wasn't the one saying that changing the order of which wrecks are tractored would make them compete with a Noctis.

I am well aware of the strengths of each. Changing them to first tractor wrecks with loot makes zero difference in the vast, overwhelming number of cases where they see use. Mostly they get dropped off and recovered later, after all wrecks have been tractored. How would it matter in that case?

So then we have cases where you are staying with it. It's very slow. A Noctis on grid will pull several wrecks in the time it gets one. Given the low value of a single piece of loot, this means the increase in value is also low. Best case scenario is it grabs a single wreck with loot from a wreck out of the noctis tractor range... A rare, low probability event that improves quality of life a bit, maybe, but makes near zero impact on a wallet.

So then we have the real issue, salvaging wrecks. MTU does not do that at all, and again you are still waiting for it to pull in all the wrecks. Even a single tractor on the noctis will out perform an MTU. In fact, giving an MTU a second tractor would not equal the ability of just one Noctis tractor, once you figure in the time it takes it to decide on a new wreck and pull them in. Salvage has nothing to do with loot, so in matter it's entirely inconsequential which wrecks get pulled first.

Lastly you have the mission Blitzer. He drops it before he starts shooting, and only in missions that don't require him to move or do require or at least allow for him to return without slowing him down. Assuming it will tractor empty wrecks if loaded ones are unavailable, and won't abandon empty wrecks if a loaded one suddenly appears, and given their slow reaction time, slow tractor speed, and small amount of time the Blitzer spends in each mission... Yes, a Blitzer might see a very small additional amount of ISK from this, but it would be very small.

Anyone actually waiting for it to loot makes more with a noctis even if it was twice as good as it is now, even ignoring salvage. For all others it makes no difference as they aren't on grid waiting for it. The rare few using it to grab a bit of loot on the run see it as QoL.

Honestly if I am salvaging I just toss one out so I can loot one box instead of 15, and commonly run 5 tractors and 3 salvagers, along with salvage drones, unless I am dropping MTUs and coming back to balls of looted wrecks, in which case it's all salvagers. In neither case can an MTU compete in any way with the Noctis.

They perform complementary and related functions, but only if you want to ignore the salvage capability and cargo carrying capacity is an MTU even in the ballpark. If it's important, you use a noctis. If it's not, leave an MTU. Only the rarest use case gets any benefit from changing the order of how it drags in wrecks.
Cyrus Tybalt
Blap n Pew
#30 - 2016-05-19 08:52:16 UTC
Don't just "loot" wrecks. Salvage them too. You lose a lot of isk by just leaving the empty wrecks behind.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2016-05-19 14:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Cyrus Tybalt wrote:
Don't just "loot" wrecks. Salvage them too. You lose a lot of isk by just leaving the empty wrecks behind.


That depends how quickly you run missions. You dont 'lose' isk if the isk/hour of salvaging is less than the isk/hour of running the next mission/site, and the price of salvage is very low right now. Consider that a lot of people blitz level 3's for more isk/hour than level 4's. How much do you think the salvage is worth in those missions? It's not worth dragging a noctis out after each mission.

The loot isn't worth much either, but you can run missions for an hour or two and then pick up all your mtu's at once...

Edit- CCP were right to make the mtu dumb and slow. And even then it's dominated the meta. Like what happened with the retriever, everyone has underestimated the value of earning rewards with very low work input by the player.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2016-05-19 14:56:49 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
if you want better , use a noctise, or befriend someone with one


What if we made a module to "direct" your MTU? Making it tractor the wreck you target and "flag" with said module. You could make your MTU more efficient at the cost of a slot and possibly some loot as you mess up and shoot the wreck instead of "flagging" it.

It would probably not get used much...
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