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My revised take on Wardecs.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#81 - 2016-05-14 20:05:22 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

you realize mercs could always do this right?

they never had to because they could focus on a handful of targeted wars

this is all the mercs are left with.

Rubbish. With Citadels the Mercs now have more meaningful wars than ever possible, since you can now specifically target a group and eliminate their corp assets from a particular area of space.
Marmite and the others are just using the lowest effort highest profit return approach because they want blingy green KB's. Not because it's the only thing they can do. It's exactly what they were doing before the buddy list got changed already.



I'm watching a scrub merc group have a heck of a time trying to take down a citadel in highsec. The sort of which is owned by an alliance... .and alliance that has in its member corps over 300 players.

An alliance that is secretly funded by nullsec alliances.

That citadel is still there. But I wonder if they are having any fun? Cool

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
GALACTIC SOUL
Mine-Refine-Industries
#82 - 2016-05-14 20:28:49 UTC
I got sick to death of merc corps wardeccing my corp. Maybe i'm just getting to old to play and enjoy eve. Either way i quit my 10 accounts. Best thing i have done all year....but i really do think eve is a good game but i am not suited anymore. And no im not giving my assets away Big smile
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2016-05-14 23:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
GALACTIC SOUL wrote:
I got sick to death of merc corps wardeccing my corp. Maybe i'm just getting to old to play and enjoy eve. Either way i quit my 10 accounts. Best thing i have done all year....but i really do think eve is a good game but i am not suited anymore. And no im not giving my assets away Big smile

Sad to see you go, but at least you have a good attitude about it, accepting that it's you're decision and where you are at, rather than blaming the game and expecting it to change for you. Wish you'd stay around with that attitude really.

However, if you aren't going to give your assets away, there must be a chance you'll be back. That's a positive.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#84 - 2016-05-14 23:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Dracvlad wrote:
Well I genuinely want a more interesting hisec, if you call bullshit on that, that is fine...

No, I'm not calling BS on wanting a more engaging highsec.

I'm calling BS on asking for more restrictions on one group of players, with no advantages for them in return compared to the current mechanics, while providing more options to other groups, with no disadvantages for them at all.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#85 - 2016-05-14 23:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
This Orwellian level of self-blindness when, if forcing infrastructure in space, this would be taken as "forcing players (wardeccers) to do something they don't want into order to do something else" and how unfair/nerf/whatever that would be.

Maybe you haven't read the discussion in full, because that completely misrepresents the point.

The rest of the post is just the typical "grrr wardeccers, they are nasty people" and "grrrr someone with an opinion", so not worth responding to.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#86 - 2016-05-15 03:43:00 UTC
As a former solo highsec wardeccer, I am glad the OP took the time to see what it is like. I took a chance on it once and fell in love with highsec wardeccing.

But CCP decided to kill the watch list (for some reason not having to do with highsec wars) and I felt that the time and effort to continue to do so was not worth it. Hunting targets basically became impossible. You could do a locater agent and they would tell you where they are (online or offline) but without the watchlist, you did not know if they were playing or not, or how active they were.

That is why merc corporations are deccing anything in sight, just to get a target. Or in our case, they were hired and directed to where we were to evict us.

I have gone back to doing PvE in highsec but have been hunting our wartargets in highsec while my corpmates fight them in the wormhole. Still have not come across any of them yet.

CCP, please bring back the watchlist.
Terquil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#87 - 2016-05-15 05:05:33 UTC
Watchlist change was a huge nerf for many groups, not only highsec. And since this is eve, you adapt. Wormholers use a loophole in Watchlist mechanics and wardeccers just dec anything there is. Fair enough.

Had many war's in highsec and never any issues. Hell i flew my 3bil nightmare through 2 gatecamps - no Problem.

Yeah they want easy kills and a geeen kb, no leet pvp here - But thats their way. If they only dec corps with citadels, then those corps have to defend it. Just like a pos.... they should feel unsafe setting up a citadel, at least this is eve

I like the suggestion of those LLCs.
Valkin Mordirc
#88 - 2016-05-15 05:37:44 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

you realize mercs could always do this right?

they never had to because they could focus on a handful of targeted wars

this is all the mercs are left with.

Rubbish. With Citadels the Mercs now have more meaningful wars than ever possible, since you can now specifically target a group and eliminate their corp assets from a particular area of space.
Marmite and the others are just using the lowest effort highest profit return approach because they want blingy green KB's. Not because it's the only thing they can do. It's exactly what they were doing before the buddy list got changed already.



You really think shooting a structure with Millions of EHP is fun?
#DeleteTheWeak
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#89 - 2016-05-15 06:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
This Orwellian level of self-blindness when, if forcing infrastructure in space, this would be taken as "forcing players (wardeccers) to do something they don't want into order to do something else" and how unfair/nerf/whatever that would be.

Maybe you haven't read the discussion in full, because that completely misrepresents the point.

The rest of the post is just the typical "grrr wardeccers, they are nasty people" and "grrrr someone with an opinion", so not worth responding to.


I think Herzog is right, you have a closed mind, also you have a tendency to throw insults in to any debate, not anywhere near as bad as Jenn a'Snide but I am sure you will work on it.

Back to the topic in hand

The thing about the Medium Citadel is that you need to have a fleet out there to defend it, it is a force multiplier and that is it and if you try to defend it without a fleet it will die. The new indy platforms will have lower level defences, I expect the observatory to have especially weak defences. At the moment I could put up a large POS and not one single hisec war dec group will attack it, and that is because its too difficult. Its because it has too much EHP and its boring, well a large POS is a strategic asset. What was funny, after I took that POS off of a certain high profile ganker in Niarja my small POS killed two war dec ships, a Falcon and a Confessor.

The watch list changes are hopefully here to stay, if it was me I would remove all that free intel in the maps too...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2016-05-15 06:05:05 UTC
The main problem with wardeccs on noobs is, that they can't follow the true saying: "don't fly anything you can't afford to loose". If you are in a corp or have friends that give you the money, there is no real problem. You get gankedd, get a new ship and go on. But the 16M ISK for a 3+ 2skill Imp set may be nearly all the money a noob got. If a vet looses 1B ISK he just goes: **** and jumps the next 1B ISK ship.
The noob may be down to a lousy frigate without imps because that's all he can afford. IMHO noobs should get full insurance for the first 2 month: They get payed for ship + modules (only t1+2)+ imps. In the third month this is reduced to 75% and after 3 month they are back to normal . So they will loose something: cargo and time build a new ship but the loss will not cripple them. This would be bound to the age of the account NOT the age of the toon.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#91 - 2016-05-15 06:22:06 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I think Herzog is right, you have a closed...

Yeah sure. That's an opinion and you are entitled to it.

I could easily retort that you have no mind. Neither open, nor closed. Just none.

That would be as useful as your statement, which is no use at all.

What do medium Citadels have to do with anything?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#92 - 2016-05-15 06:41:18 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I think Herzog is right, you have a closed...

Yeah sure. That's an opinion and you are entitled to it.

I could easily retort that you have no mind. Neither open, nor closed. Just none.

That would be as useful as your statement, which is no use at all.

What do medium Citadels have to do with anything?


Well if you run along and look at C&P you will find the last post on the Vendetta Merc Alliance thread by Natural CloneKiller touting for Citadel business.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6486329#post6486329

That is called understanding the subject matter...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#93 - 2016-05-15 06:49:53 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I think Herzog is right, you have a closed...

Yeah sure. That's an opinion and you are entitled to it.

I could easily retort that you have no mind. Neither open, nor closed. Just none.

That would be as useful as your statement, which is no use at all.

What do medium Citadels have to do with anything?


Well if you run along and look at C&P you will find the last post on the Vendetta Merc Alliance thread by Natural CloneKiller touting for Citadel business.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6486329#post6486329

That is called understanding the subject matter...

One merc group hiring themselves out to protect or destroy Citadels isnt relevant to this discussion.

This isn't about what any one group is doing. That they can do it is great.

This discussion (the one we,ve been having together) is about wanting to place restrictions on another group of players, while providing more opportunities to other groups. It's about how the proposals around wardecs are always one sided and in almost 100% of cases, the outcomes of the changes would benefit the person making the suggestion. No one makes fully balanced proposals that acknowledge that other people have just as much right to try to play how they want, as you do.

That has nothing to do with medium Citadels.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#94 - 2016-05-15 07:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I think Herzog is right, you have a closed...

Yeah sure. That's an opinion and you are entitled to it.

I could easily retort that you have no mind. Neither open, nor closed. Just none.

That would be as useful as your statement, which is no use at all.

What do medium Citadels have to do with anything?


Well if you run along and look at C&P you will find the last post on the Vendetta Merc Alliance thread by Natural CloneKiller touting for Citadel business.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6486329#post6486329

That is called understanding the subject matter...

One merc group hiring themselves out to protect or destroy Citadels isnt relevant to this discussion.

This isn't about what any one group is doing. That they can do it is great.

This discussion (the one we,ve been having together) is about wanting to place restrictions on another group of players, while providing more opportunities to other groups. It's about how the proposals around wardecs are always one sided and in almost 100% of cases, the outcomes of the changes would benefit the person making the suggestion. No one makes fully balanced proposals that acknowledge that other people have just as much right to try to play how they want, as you do.

That has nothing to do with medium Citadels.


Its called a holistic assessment of war decs..

So who killed that Citadel in Perimeter, Break A Wish Foundation did, who when they are active are downright scary, so thats two. Vendetta is currently the most active merc war dec alliance in the game in terms of blanket war decs so that is totally relevant to this discussion. I mean this is baby stuff.

As I said you have a closed mind, you focus on one issue the person and their motives to the exclusion of the subject matter.

The objective I have is to create meaningful space combat in a game where the objective and fun is making pixels blow up, in doing that I want hisec entities to get up off their asses and to become better than what they are now, mainly they are one man throw away corps and people sitting in NPC corps. The proposal I have is basically that CCP create an observatory structure for a constellation that gives back in hisec for that constellation the watch list intel and perhaps more interesting stuff. What that does is create a conflict driver and a valuable one at that. I also implore CCP to move on that fast so that what I see as a group of very dedicated Eve players don't walk away from the game. Hardly one sided...

EDIT: In fact I have now walked away from my restricting of war decs to corps that have stuff in space thanks in part to your posts, because at the end of the day I feel being able to war dec people because you don't like them is too important to lose in this game.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2016-05-15 07:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I think Herzog is right, you have a closed...

Yeah sure. That's an opinion and you are entitled to it.

I could easily retort that you have no mind. Neither open, nor closed. Just none.

That would be as useful as your statement, which is no use at all.

What do medium Citadels have to do with anything?


Well if you run along and look at C&P you will find the last post on the Vendetta Merc Alliance thread by Natural CloneKiller touting for Citadel business.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6486329#post6486329

That is called understanding the subject matter...

One merc group hiring themselves out to protect or destroy Citadels isnt relevant to this discussion.

This isn't about what any one group is doing. That they can do it is great.

This discussion (the one we,ve been having together) is about wanting to place restrictions on another group of players, while providing more opportunities to other groups. It's about how the proposals around wardecs are always one sided and in almost 100% of cases, the outcomes of the changes would benefit the person making the suggestion. No one makes fully balanced proposals that acknowledge that other people have just as much right to try to play how they want, as you do.

That has nothing to do with medium Citadels.


Its called a holistic assessment of war decs..

So who killed that Citadel in Perimeter, Break A Wish Foundation did, who when they are active are downright scary, so thats two. Vendetta is currently the most active merc war dec alliance in the game in terms of blanket war decs so that is totally relevant to this discussion. I mean this is baby stuff.

As I said you have a closed mind, you focus on one issue the person and their motives to the exclusion of the subject matter.

The objective I have is to create meaningful space combat in a game where the objective and fun is making pixels blow up, in doing that I want hisec entities to get up off their asses and to become better than what they are now, mainly they are one man throw away corps and people sitting in NPC corps. The proposal I have is basically that CCP create an observatory structure for a constellation that gives back in hisec for that constellation the watch list intel and perhaps more interesting stuff. What that does is create a conflict driver and a valuable one at that. I also implore CCP to move on that fast so that what I see as a group of very dedicated Eve players don't walk away from the game. Hardly one sided...

EDIT: In fact I have now walked away from my restricting of war decs to corps that have stuff in space thanks in part to your posts, because at the end of the day I feel being able to war dec people because you don't like them is too important to lose in this game.

You can call it closed minded all you like. That doesn't change the fact that what you are saying is that the only way the game should allow people to play is the way that you think it should be played.

I'll continue to call BS on that because you have no greater right to dictate how changes should proceed anymore than anyone else, especially as the changes you want to force on people meet the way you personally like to play.

The closed mind isn't in wanting people to be able to choose for themselves how to play, which is my view. All play styles are valid and it is BS to think that only your way is the correct way.

That you look down on the solo players and characterise them as sitting on their asses is something you're entitled to think. Doesn't mean it is not complete bollocks though.

People have every right to choose to play on their own, no matter what rubbish you want to force on them.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Gurista Nerfed
Doomheim
#96 - 2016-05-15 08:59:48 UTC
GALACTIC SOUL wrote:
I got sick to death of merc corps wardeccing my corp. Maybe i'm just getting to old to play and enjoy eve. Either way i quit my 10 accounts. Best thing i have done all year....but i really do think eve is a good game but i am not suited anymore. And no im not giving my assets away Big smile

Ditto. I dont have that many accounts, but the ones I do have I'll just let them run out. I'll scout for wardec changes and see if ccp gets their head of their asses and do something about this problem.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#97 - 2016-05-15 09:40:52 UTC
Gurista Nerfed wrote:
s and see if ccp gets their head of their asses and do something about this problem.

What would 'do something about this problem' be though that would satisfy you?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#98 - 2016-05-15 09:55:04 UTC
Now theres the problem!

I have enough iskies to fire up an alt and wardec people left and right and generally act like a douche...

The problem is, i'm just too nice... i have a strong sense of right and wrong and there lies the problem... it would just feel... bad...

I mean, once i got my NH jumped by a guy in a thorax, who evidently had no clue as to what he was doing, so i kept him shooting at me while firing up my alt who was closeby, then i tackled him and beat him silly... he deserved it, but i still felt this lil pain of guilt, for beatin a lil noob cuz i could've easily warped out.

I handed him his remaining stuff back too... LMFAO!! Gawd i suck at this game sooo bad, but still love it! Lol
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2016-05-15 10:21:41 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Gurista Nerfed wrote:
s and see if ccp gets their head of their asses and do something about this problem.

What would 'do something about this problem' be though that would satisfy you?

Tell me what can you do AGAINST wardeccers? I don't think about going out of your ways to avoid them but to hurt them so that they leave you alone. You are telling people to adapt but how do you adapt and keep you playing style.
How can you chase them, and what's the point in killing them: the ships are cheap but the loot is great if they get a freighter. You are helpless and a long as they are willing to pay the price they can decc you for a decade. That's the problem. You can't do nothing, have to change your ways of playing and there is no end in sight. Just limiting wardeccs to 2 weeks with a 6 weeks cooldown would help. It's no the smartest way to do it but the easiest to implement.

A comparison for the feeling of an industrial would be a minedecc to a PvP clan. When you not outmine the miners each day your weapon damage is halved. You are complaining? Switch to an out of corp toon, learn mining. Roll
How many people would quit if this feature would be implemented? A lot and rightly so.
If you want to hunt big game in High pay the price! There is nothing that will keep a freighter save just the price you will have to pay for the kill. If you want to fight without it go to low/null.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#100 - 2016-05-15 10:38:52 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
Tell me what can you do AGAINST wardeccers? I don't think about going out of your ways to avoid them but to hurt them so that they leave you alone. You are telling people to adapt but how do you adapt and keep you playing style.

I indicated on the previous page, how we deal with a wardec (or more correctly, why a wardec means nothing to us, so we manage it and play as normal):

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6487194#post6487194

Quote:
How can you chase them, and what's the point in killing them: the ships are cheap but the loot is great if they get a freighter. You are helpless and a long as they are willing to pay the price they can decc you for a decade. That's the problem. You can't do nothing, have to change your ways of playing and there is no end in sight. Just limiting wardeccs to 2 weeks with a 6 weeks cooldown would help. It's no the smartest way to do it but the easiest to implement.

If you play their game, why would they not continue to declare war? That would seem to be the perfect outcome for many of them.

As for you "can't do nothing", I agree. Doing something is the best approach, but doing something doesn't have to be playing the way they want us to play. We play the way we want, because the wardec is a totally arbtirary thing as far as our play goes and they are made by groups we don't know and have nothing against.

We drop our logistics alts to NPC Corps, because if you lose a Freighter to a wartarget, well that's just stupid.

This game is totally about the opportunities for player interaction, whether you want that interaction or not. So rather than taking the view that there is nothing we can do, it's really quite easy to not give the wardeccers what they want (especially now with the watch list changes) and continue to play how we want.

Quote:
A comparison for the feeling of an industrial would be a minedecc to a PvP clan. When you not outmine the miners each day your weapon damage is halved. You are complaining? Switch to an out of corp toon, learn mining. Roll

Wait, what? Can you point me to the mechanic that halves mining yield if you don't pvp?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."