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Show of support for getting dev time for fixing the blob 1000 VS 1 AKA The Alpha Problem.

First post
Author
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#161 - 2012-01-13 17:48:28 UTC
Jan'tor wrote:
hi I'm from wow, just here to tell you wow pvp is often all about alpha too

well, bye


It's a tactic used in Guild Wars (called "spiking" there) and doubtlessly other MMOs as well. Call it remote rep, healing, or whatever you want, it makes spikes/alpha necessary. However, sometimes hitting their whole team at once is the right strategy.

What the issue in Eve is is that, in the absence of remote rep, it is far easier to coordinate a "primary X; primary Y; primary Z" fleet, and no real advantage to tactically spreading fire.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group
#162 - 2012-01-13 17:59:08 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Dumb Stuffz


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg

Won't work. LOS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERqUb0G6vQ

LOL WUT.



Ya, LoS never would work ever, cause, everyone had a 100% clear shot in all those correct?

Sub caps were all cool ya?

Also maller? lolwut. I was more in the carrier level here (at least BS) taking like DD hits rather than the super cap...

Not some maller covering a ceptor rofl or something dumb.

Also I never said that was the hole idea behind it, I said it opened it up.

I mean really, you think the fleets in those vids would have taken 0 FF damage with LOS?
You really think you could alpha one cane if everyone did not fire at the sametime?

Idk.... looks like to me you would have FF damage, as well as, how are you gona hit one on the back side or in the middle with 0 shots hitting any other ship? lol come on.

Talking about a maller just shows us you have to think a blob is 10 people lol.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#163 - 2012-01-13 18:06:11 UTC
supersexysucker wrote:
Sperg.

And here I thought the level of intelligence in this thread couldn't go any lower. Bravo.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-01-13 18:06:33 UTC
So, uh, "supersexysucker", have you ever done any programming whatsoever?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#165 - 2012-01-13 18:09:41 UTC
supersexysucker wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Dumb Stuffz


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg

Won't work. LOS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERqUb0G6vQ

LOL WUT.



Ya, LoS never would work ever, cause, everyone had a 100% clear shot in all those correct?

Sub caps were all cool ya?

Also maller? lolwut. I was more in the carrier level here (at least BS) taking like DD hits rather than the super cap...

Not some maller covering a ceptor rofl or something dumb.

Also I never said that was the hole idea behind it, I said it opened it up.

I mean really, you think the fleets in those vids would have taken 0 FF damage with LOS?
You really think you could alpha one cane if everyone did not fire at the sametime?

Idk.... looks like to me you would have FF damage, as well as, how are you gona hit one on the back side or in the middle with 0 shots hitting any other ship? lol come on.

Talking about a maller just shows us you have to think a blob is 10 people lol.


In those videos you showed there may have been a few (less than 10) shots that would have hit friendly fire because of LoS. Ships are tiny compared to the distances between them. Get in one of those battles and use the "Look At" function on any ship to see just how wide of an open window it actually has to fire. Looking at battles from far away doesn't tell you anything.

I picked the Maller because it is a reasonably brick-ish ship that can actually move. If you want a bigger example, I could talk about the Tempest or something, but it's the same issue with a much larger mass. Please explain to me how a carrier moving at 70-80 m/s is ever going to block anything on purpose to save an ally.

No, 10 people is a small gang. I have been in hundreds vs hundreds fleet fights, been blobbed by 30-40 Hurricanes all shooting me at once, and other assorted fun large fleet things. You are in a hisec training corp. Please shut up before you make yourself sound even dumber.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Jan'tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2012-01-13 18:19:45 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Jan'tor wrote:
hi I'm from wow, just here to tell you wow pvp is often all about alpha too

well, bye


It's a tactic used in Guild Wars (called "spiking" there) and doubtlessly other MMOs as well. Call it remote rep, healing, or whatever you want, it makes spikes/alpha necessary. However, sometimes hitting their whole team at once is the right strategy.

What the issue in Eve is is that, in the absence of remote rep, it is far easier to coordinate a "primary X; primary Y; primary Z" fleet, and no real advantage to tactically spreading fire.


there is literally no difference between "jam the zealot, primary the guardian" and "hex the mage, sit on the priest"

none
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#167 - 2012-01-13 18:24:03 UTC
Jan'tor wrote:

there is literally no difference between "jam the zealot, primary the guardian" and "hex the mage, sit on the priest"

none

I never played WoW, so that beats me, but it sounds about right. I was drawing a parallel to Guild Wars, where there are some "spread fire" tactics that are useful, and sometimes spreading fire is the best way to prevent the enemy from doing useful things. Ignoring everyone else to focus on one guy could let them do some long casting-time stuff that could wreck you (not going into details because it's not worth it).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Mirima Thurander
#168 - 2012-01-14 07:55:37 UTC
large fleets are cool whats not cool is the fact that the best tactic that we have is to have ever one to shoot the same guy.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-01-14 10:10:30 UTC
And your "pipedream" won't happen until CCP removes logistics entirely from the game, and even then the fleet concentrating on taking down the other fleet one by one instead of trying to take out everyone at the same time by having everyone shoot their own target, will win.

Give up. Or fly bombers, and realize that you're using alpha here as well.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Gripen
#170 - 2012-01-14 15:24:46 UTC
To Lord Zim

OP talks about problem.
Other people make suggestions about logistics and bombers while they have nothing to do with it.
You correctly state that they are wrong and then say that problem is thus unsolvable. Makes sense... not.

There are dozens of different methods that would solve focus fire problem ("Alpha problem" is quite misleading name imho).
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#171 - 2012-01-14 15:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
easiest solution, though not always practical, is to avoid blobs
a thousand people are going to get bored really quick if everyone but the criminally stupid blue-balls them

smaller gangs with obvious logi & falcons suffer the same issue, if you are OP people just wont play with you, and you are reduced to either shedding the advanced ships or picking off loners at gates and belts or the occasional dumb gang that doesn't bother to scout

sure you still get KMs but its nowhere near as interesting

also you might consider moving to a place where blob warfare is not the norm
Where I live we never see fleets bigger than 50 unless someone is on a field trip
NPC null is severely under-rated