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WH Structure Idea - more pain but less evictions
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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-05-04 22:56:51 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
TLDR
New structure idea so you can attack a corp and cause significant/lasting damage but without needing to remove (evict) them from wormholes entirely.


CCP is making new structures... here is an idea for one unique to wh space.

I put this in the wormhole forums rather than features and Ideas so I didn't get a bunch of nullsecers shouting down the idea with no thought. Id much rather wormholers shout the idea down.

While its fun to blow up stuff, my opinion is that evictions are bad for wormhole space. Because people lose all their stuff
and then a sizable proportion leave wormhole space or the game. Id rather people stay in wormholes so they can prosper and be blown up over and over.

What if wormhole space had another structure. One that you could blow up and cause significant pain to your foe but without completely removing that corp from wormhole space.

Engineering facility.
(deployable in wormhole space only and only when a citadel is also deployed in system. One engineering facility
per system)

Has approximately same subcap defenses as a medium POS. Same anti capital defenses as a medium citadel. (so cant just easily dread blap it)

Same owner specified vulnerability windows as citadels but only shield and hull. 0% shield = 24 hours reinforce timer. 0% hull = destruction (so its possible to blow it up over the weekend). All weapons are online until 0% hull.

Like citadels it always exits reinforcement during the defenders prime so they have an opportunity to defend. After anchoring it is fully armed and full shield.

Same time to kill a defense layer as citadels eg aprox 30 mins.

Costs ((isk)= 1.5 billion to build in c1-c3 space. 2.5 billion in c4. 4 billion in c5. 5 billion in c6. No fuel/upkeep cost.

Has to be over 1000km from any other structure.

When destroyed drops 50% of its total cost as as facility core module and generates a KM.

Drifters will occasionally attack this structure. Drifters may also attack any fleet attempting to destroy it.

Benefits of Engineering Facility
If you have one in your system it :

- buffs your blue loot value by 30%.
- Reduces laser / harvester duration by x percentage for 4 hours.
- buffs your manufacturing/ other stuff by x percentage.
- Gives your ships a 4 hour 3% buff to armor,shield,hull.speed and agility. (only on ships of same alliance and buff applied when docked)

Note - Id suggest regular blue loot is devalued by 20-30%. So having this facility gets you back to current levels or slightly above. Have to put your blue loot in the facility for processing. It returns it back to you with % extra value.

Changes to citadels
To make this work wormhole (only) citadels would need a significant buff to defense capability so its much harder to destroy them and a attacking fleet (sub cap or capital) would take significant losses.

Engineering facility needs to destroyed before a citadel can be attacked.

The citadel is invulnerable for 5 days after the facility is destroyed. So if you want to evict someone its a multi weekend OP. A wh citadel cant be un- anchored during this 5 day invulnerability or while engineering facility is being attacked.

Intended result : Evictions only happen if you really hate that corp or really want that wormhole. Aim is to minimize evictions because attacker was bored and wanted content.

Lore whatever... : citadels in wormholes use energy emitted by in-system sleeper facilities to run the citadels defense systems.

Wormhole citadels would have significant fuel cost to run. (so people don't put them up everywhere in their system). No fuel = no defenses / weapons / no invulnerability windows / no tethering etc.

The idea is to turn citadels into medieval castles. You run to them when you cant or wont defend your system. All Hangers/Storage etc are still in your citadel. Engineering facilities are like medieval farms. If you run away to your citadel then their is a good chance the enemy is going to burn your farm down.

*Costs / buffs / drops percentages etc can be adjusted for balance / reasons etc.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#2 - 2016-05-05 19:19:36 UTC
I'm on the fence about the wh loot deal. I totally agree your assets should be at risk, but having to chase locals around for a week or two while they tried to collect garbage from space and doing some cat and kouse sounded more interesting to me than here you go.

However, people absolutely do need to have the ability to evict others. And that includes the defenders, because if some hardcore bears move into your honey hole and you can no longer get rid of them... that's a problem.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-05-06 02:14:08 UTC
Way to request a complete PVE buff so that you can make more isk with your carebearing and call it a PVP change....

In any case, structures dont work the way you want them to work for this suggestion (ie; varying costs and/or effects based on location) so it's really irrelevant.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-05-06 04:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Jack Miton wrote:
Way to request a complete PVE buff so that you can make more isk with your carebearing and call it a PVP change....

In any case, structures dont work the way you want them to work for this suggestion (ie; varying costs and/or effects based on location) so it's really irrelevant.


On the contrary dear Jack..

If you make wormholes more attractive for PVErs it encourages more people to come to wormholes. More people = more targets for PVPers. Its a ecosystem. You need prey for the predators to feed.

Structures could give a time limited drug effect when you dock to give the bonuses.
Blue loot could work like current ore compressors. put something in (to the engineering facility)... get a different product (more valuable blue loot) out.

I want to buff wormholes so more people come and live here. So PVErs can make more isk, PVPers find more targets and everyone gets more explosions. I would prefer it was harder to evict people but still give attackers a meaningful way to make a target suffer by hitting their isk making ability eg blowing up the engineering facility.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Maria Kitiare
Overload This
Escalation Theory
#5 - 2016-05-07 07:01:56 UTC
So.. Ehmm..

You want wormhole ESS that can't be stolen from and that have defenses and reinforce timer?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-05-07 12:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I like the idea,as i have proposed something similar in the past Blink

I would make a few amendments though... Effectively it should be a wormhole ESS which works as follows:

1. You get an additional 20% of blue loot earned in the system which is stored in the new structure
2. It is always attackable and exits reinforced at the owners preferred time
3. It has an 'unlocked stage' for when the blue loot can be extracted. The 'unlocked stage' only occurs once per week and at a certain time (e.g owners prime time). Anyone can access it during the unlocked stage, however, if you are not in the owning corp, you have to hack it first.
4. Anyone can see what is inside it simply by selecting it while on grid.
5. When destroyed it drops 80% of blue loot and additional salvage/materials from the structure itself.
6. It should cost in the region of 3 billion to construct irrespective of what class system you are in.

I feel a structure like this would generate more conflict between players, reward people willing invest in and defend their system and make PVP profitable.

I do not think it should give any other industry advantages or benefits to combat, as this would simply be imbalanced... I don't see anything I like in your citadel amendments, sorry.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-05-11 23:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
helana Tsero wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Way to request a complete PVE buff so that you can make more isk with your carebearing and call it a PVP change....

In any case, structures dont work the way you want them to work for this suggestion (ie; varying costs and/or effects based on location) so it's really irrelevant.
On the contrary dear Jack..

If you make wormholes more attractive for PVErs it encourages more people to come to wormholes. More people = more targets for PVPers. Its a ecosystem. You need prey for the predators to feed.

Structures could give a time limited drug effect when you dock to give the bonuses.
Blue loot could work like current ore compressors. put something in (to the engineering facility)... get a different product (more valuable blue loot) out.

I want to buff wormholes so more people come and live here. So PVErs can make more isk, PVPers find more targets and everyone gets more explosions. I would prefer it was harder to evict people but still give attackers a meaningful way to make a target suffer by hitting their isk making ability eg blowing up the engineering facility.

yeah, except that isnt how it works in reality.
wspace has been the easiest place to farm isk for years now and people have done so in shell corps and with alts on massive scales.
what it resulted in was not more pvp but actually the exact opposite; pvp corps were pushed of and evicted by the endless isk supply of the farmers.

we finally got a change to the highly broken system with the escalation changes, we do not need to go back to incentivizing a pve only culture in wspace.

PS: the fact that rek is supporting another pve buff is shocking, SHOCKING!!! (said no one ever...)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-05-11 23:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Jack Miton wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Way to request a complete PVE buff so that you can make more isk with your carebearing and call it a PVP change....

In any case, structures dont work the way you want them to work for this suggestion (ie; varying costs and/or effects based on location) so it's really irrelevant.
On the contrary dear Jack..

If you make wormholes more attractive for PVErs it encourages more people to come to wormholes. More people = more targets for PVPers. Its a ecosystem. You need prey for the predators to feed.

Structures could give a time limited drug effect when you dock to give the bonuses.
Blue loot could work like current ore compressors. put something in (to the engineering facility)... get a different product (more valuable blue loot) out.

I want to buff wormholes so more people come and live here. So PVErs can make more isk, PVPers find more targets and everyone gets more explosions. I would prefer it was harder to evict people but still give attackers a meaningful way to make a target suffer by hitting their isk making ability eg blowing up the engineering facility.

yeah, except that isnt how it works in reality.
wspace has been the easiest place to farm isk for years now and people have done so in shell corps and with alts on massive scales.
what it resulted in was not more pvp but actually the exact opposite; pvp corps were pushed of and evicted by the endless isk supply of the farmers.

we finally got a change to the highly broken system with the escalation changes, we do not need to go back to incentivizing a pve only culture in wspace.

PS: the fact that rek is supporting another pve buff is shocking, SHOCKING!!! (said no one ever...)


I hear what your saying and I hate the farm hole : log on once a week/fortnight, shut yourself in and farm for hours then log off for another fortnight crap as much as anyone. It just means that wormhole is dead for content for anyone else in wormhole space.

That's why i think the drifters hanging out on wormholes is a positive change. (making rolling to shut down your connections a bit harder).

I want to encourage more people to come to wormhole space and isk is a good incentive. Id like to see more isk but force each member of the fleet to be a more active participant so the efficient way to farm is as a group of actual people not alts. Cause right now the more actual people you bring the less isk per person you get.

I think the biggest issue is the ease of shutting down the connections to farm risk free.

I didn't cover it in my initial post but I think it should be impossible to roll all your connections and shut yourself in. You roll your static hole another one immediately spawns and then opens in aprox 5 mins on the other side.

Make it so isk is great in wormholes but the risk is equal to that isk. Alts on holes (maybe combined with bubbles) and pinging dscan should be the defense you rely on. Changing the sleepers to make using a PVP fleet to run sites viable and not nerf your isk per time invested is also a good option and the current changes support that to ''some'' extent with needing to scram the drifter.

So then you could have the ecosystem I was talking about. More isk brings more bears. Bears cant be 99% safe anymore so hunters kill bears amore often. More hunters arrive to kill the greater bear population. = all up greater wormhole population.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2016-05-12 00:33:59 UTC
front page of a dumpster-tier pve thread

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-05-12 08:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Jack Miton wrote:
PS: the fact that rek is supporting another pve buff is shocking, SHOCKING!!! (said no one ever...)


You don't know me and have never been in the same groups as me so i don't know why you are making me out to be a carebear. I don't even do PVE! You are the one creating PVE guides and only having a single pod kill to show for your kill report this year FFS!

You never seem to take the time to understand what i say... Yes, what I want would increase a corps income but I counter that by requiring people to invest more isk and then fight to protect that investment if they want the extra reward.

So no, I'm not supporting a PVE buff, I'm supporting the addition of a conflict driver.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-05-12 23:40:03 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
PS: the fact that rek is supporting another pve buff is shocking, SHOCKING!!! (said no one ever...)


You don't know me and have never been in the same groups as me so i don't know why you are making me out to be a carebear. I don't even do PVE! You are the one creating PVE guides and only having a single pod kill to show for your kill report this year FFS!

You never seem to take the time to understand what i say... Yes, what I want would increase a corps income but I counter that by requiring people to invest more isk and then fight to protect that investment if they want the extra reward.

So no, I'm not supporting a PVE buff, I'm supporting the addition of a conflict driver.

you're so cute :)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-05-13 08:12:50 UTC
Thanks?Straight ... That must mean you know I'm right x

The wishlist is pretty much complete...