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The worst part of being new to Eve, is the vet's...
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Ka Plaa
Doomheim
#21 - 2016-05-12 16:31:31 UTC
Stratios is a beautiful and fun ship. Good goal. You are going to lose ships learning, though. Might as well learn losing ships not as expensive first, eh? T1 exploration frigates > t2 exploration frigates > astero > stratios

Train up your drone and covert cloaking skills. :)



"The Crowd Is Untruth" - Kierkegaard
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-05-12 17:11:29 UTC
Old characters in npc corp are not vets. They are a toxic cancer who collectively ruin the game for more new players than anything else with their recursive risk adverse brainwashing. They have never actually experienced the game and are a constant blight on the new player experience.

Though I have no personal experience I have heard similar things about your current alliance.

I suspect you are just playing with the wrong people. I fly ships I can't afford to replace all the time. I just know they aren't getting replaced when I lose them. I also fly T1 frigs even though I can fly just about anything because they are fun and I can lose as many as I like without worrying about isk.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#23 - 2016-05-12 17:32:35 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Old characters in npc corp are not vets. They are a toxic cancer who collectively ruin the game for more new players than anything else with their recursive risk adverse brainwashing. They have never actually experienced the game and are a constant blight on the new player experience.

Though I have no personal experience I have heard similar things about your current alliance.

I suspect you are just playing with the wrong people. I fly ships I can't afford to replace all the time. I just know they aren't getting replaced when I lose them. I also fly T1 frigs even though I can fly just about anything because they are fun and I can lose as many as I like without worrying about isk.


Cara, normally I love your insight and to the point method of posting. Here, I don't think you're being overly fair to NPC corp players and being overly general.

If you'd overlook my brash ignorance here, maybe you could forgive a bit of a rewrite of your post? Feel free to slap me for my arrogance in taking liberty with your post... here goes:

When veteran characters place themselves into NPC corps, it is normally driven by something relatively transient, a War Dec, recent issues with a corp they were in, etc. Those conditions shouldn't last long and if you see a veteran character in an NPC corp for an extended period of time, say 6 months, then usually something odd is going on and the play style is certainly uncommon.

Taking advice from such a veteran is usually recommended to be done with a grain of salt. It's always good to listen to another opinion, you never know how you may end up applying it in your game, but certainly think about giving priority to the more commonly accepted methodologies of the game. Most of which include participation in an active player corp to get the maximum benefit from true social play. It's far more efficient in most careers of the game to be doing it with others of the same mind-set.

Okay, ready for the smack down. Nomex bikini on...

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Sere O'Asis
Desert Oasis Investigations
#24 - 2016-05-12 17:46:05 UTC
"EVE is what you make of it. This is the point where nearly all the reviews of it fall short." Pandora Carrollon, Kingsman Tailors




Pandora is spot on here.

EVE is a game of creativity, effort, and will.

So, if you want to do something, do it.


o7
Sere
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#25 - 2016-05-12 17:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
We are not referring to dec dodjers , haulers or people inbetween corps.

Theres a specific breed of player that will trash talk player corps up and down ,
spiew risk averse beligerent missinformation and biased trueisims dispite never having left their npc corp.

I have come across plenty in my time here , they are often miners or mission runners and you will come to see them in time.

I will clarify, i am not acusing every npc player of being like this, or every npc corp of having them, dmc and c.a.s would be exelent examples of the contrary,

But

They are there,
we have seen them
and it is a problem

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#26 - 2016-05-12 18:06:24 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
We are not referring to dec dodjers , haulers or people inbetween corps.

Theres a specific breed of player that will trash talk player corps up and down ,
spiew risk averse beligerent missinformation and biased trueisims dispite never having left their npc corp.

I have come across plenty in my time here , they are often miners or mission runners and you will come to see them in time.

I will clarify, i am not acusing every npc player of being like this, or every npc corp of having them, dmc and c.a.s would be exelent examples of the contrary,

But

They are there,
we have seen them
and it is a problem


Understood, but that's a pretty fine distinction for a new player to try and make. I think that as people we are fairly well wired to know when something is fishy in Denmark (no offense to the Danes... it's Shakespere... honest! Lol )

I've run into some players that down talk corps as well, but there is another thing we have to keep in mind. Since this game is a sandbox, it's up to us to determine how we play and how we like to play. There isn't a 'valid' play style. There are efficient play styles that do X,Y, or Z well, and maybe a hundred that don't do them effectively at all. So even those grumpy, crumudgeon's that hate player corps and whine to CCP to make their game better are getting some kind of enjoyment out of it or they'd quit. Thus, in our little EVE world, it's a valid playstyle. *WE* might not like it at all, it might be rotten and foul, but we have to accept its validity.

So, I might agree with you, I'm not a fan of the approach they are doing, EVE is predominantly a social game, but you can play it solo and be the grumpy old guy on the porch that yells at everyone going up and down the street.

My 2 cents, valid or not.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Jarrard Lorn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-05-12 18:19:21 UTC
Why would you listen to other peoples advice in a game that's as open ended as this?
The whole point is find your own thing... if that lines up with other people or a corp great.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#28 - 2016-05-12 18:25:30 UTC
Oh iv no issues with someone being antisocial and wrong, sand box, its entirely valid.
When they start teaching newbros their view of eve though,
thats why its a problem,
newbros dont know any better and get turned against the community before they even get out into it.

Thats what we are talking about.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#29 - 2016-05-12 19:25:54 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Oh iv no issues with someone being antisocial and wrong, sand box, its entirely valid.
When they start teaching newbros their view of eve though,
thats why its a problem,
newbros dont know any better and get turned against the community before they even get out into it.

Thats what we are talking about.


True, I'm not actually finding fault with the content of the message, just the dangers in the presentation. Recall we can't really hold their hands and guard them against all the scams and other player generated pitfalls out there.

So, I think it's up to you vets to also put things forward in such a way that helps them understand the pitfalls of listening to the people like that out there but not entirely pish-poshing their opinions on how to play, or we might find ourselves guilty of advocating for given play styles at the expense of others... essentially making our sandbox smaller without realizing it or even wanting to do it.

I've often felt that while the game has a steep learning curve, the steepest curve is dealing with the people in the game. Finding friend from foe, or sifting the wheat out of the chaff of advice is it's own kind of problem.

That's why I am supremely grateful to people like you Ralph, and Cara, and Memphis, and ergh... etc. etc.

I guess the best advice here is find the vets willing to help you and ignore the ones trying to control you... maybe that's the TL:DR.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Nadja Hawk
Doomheim
#30 - 2016-05-12 19:36:41 UTC
who ever said you should mine your first weeks in eve?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#31 - 2016-05-12 20:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Nadja Hawk wrote:
who ever said you should mine your first weeks in eve?
It is said far, far too often the rookie channel and in NPC corps in general.

New players reading this: just don't. By all means, go mine for an hour and see what you think, but don't mine for weeks on end if you want to do something else. You will have mastered 90% of the game play in that hour and the rest is just juggling numbers and optimizing your operation. Some people really get off on that, but highsec mining is not the best example of the compelling and communal work of science fiction that is Eve Online.

As the OP says, just go out there and risk your imaginary space pixels. Meet people, make explosions and learn how to play the game - all the game. Don't let well-meaning (but mistaken) vets scare you into never risking anything, or infect you with their poisonous view that all that matters in this game is "muh ISK/h"! The real metric you should be chasing is fun/h and if you find yourself logging in to stare at mining lasers while you really want to be doing something else, you are playing the game wrong and are on the path to burnout and unsubscription.

There maybe a time down the road when you might have to do some less engaging gameplay in the pursuit of a greater goal. When you start out though, you should be taking chances, trying new things and having fun learning the game, exploding repeatedly and often along the way. The longer you wait to leave highsec, the less chance you will ever do it. But ultimately though, do whatever you choose as there are many niches and ways to play the game but you have to be willing to explore the game to find them.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Araki Goodwill
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2016-05-12 20:52:53 UTC
Nadja Hawk wrote:
who ever said you should mine your first weeks in eve?


Well, When i first joined Eve.. I didnt really have much idea of what i was doing. So i asked the ever famous question
"How do i make ISK in this game?" and I got as answer "In the first weeks you should do mining" of majority of the poeple... in the rookie chat where i asked this question.

So I went out in my lovely Venture into High sec and i started mining Veldspar and after 10 minutes of my Mining journy i thought "My Venture must be full now i guess"... Not even close. Another 30 minutes went on and My Venture eventually got full. And i just realized that i spent 40 minutes of staring at beautiful graphics of Eve. they trully are. And then i see the price (Est price 800,000isk) And i was like "Is this real?" And i started doing research..

And i found "High sec is profitable" yeah right, yeah? :D I thought so.. I went into a Data site, and i failed the hack twice, and my dear Imicus blew up.. Ok i thought, So i bought a new imicus went to a new site... I kept my range at 2500 meter this time.. The explosion wont get me this time! I thought I was safe. I was not.. Apparently this was a ghost site.. So not knowing that I quickly blew up... And i had gotten like 2m isk and lost 1,6m. I thought, this is even worse then Mining in a venture.

And then i did some more research, Apparenty WH's are Profitable... Sitting on 5 mill I didnt have much isk to lose.. And i found out that 1 40 minute yourney with my Venture would pay for a fitted Imicus if i should fail. So i jumped into WH's the day after.. I had learned that 2500 meter is "Safe" range on explosion, And i knew how to stay safe of Ghost sites... And i went journing into WH with my uncloaked and cheap imicus.. that very first day i got 20m (wich isnt that much looking back at it.) but looking back at it It was the most fun i have had in eve so far.. The risk And the adrenaline that it brought and stuff...

I promise you, since then I havent left WH's and I have Lost like 5-6 imicuses now? I have lost count tbh, Its not more then 6 anyway. And i am currently sitting on 310m Isk atm...


But i quickly learned that by doing a little bit of research, all the tips you get as a newbro is all scare tactics... They are not valid (to some extend) and it only helps you get scared of losing ships and even trying to listen to them is discouraging as hell.

And what triggered me into writing this post, is not any corp, or any specific people. But its the same newbros that started around or before me, That have literally raged at me in a aggresive manner for taking risks. And i understand that its the rookie chat that is "causing" this. And I didnt mean to "Complain" either :D I wanted to cause a Conversation around this topic and that i managed to do. I enjoyed the read., actually :D

And to people who have tried to help me, Yes i am fully aware of all the risks and how the stratios works. I have done the research :- ) Just wanted to cause some conversation around this topic, because it isnt being touched on at all. And as a newbro I wanted to get it out there that this is a game afterall.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#33 - 2016-05-12 21:08:34 UTC
^^thats exactly what im talking about, its like taking your devoutly catholic family to a music festival,

"you musnt have fun, you must lookat the mud and pray like the rest of us"

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#34 - 2016-05-12 21:43:25 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
^^thats exactly what im talking about, its like taking your devoutly catholic family to a music festival,
Is that the voice of experience there Ralph?

Quote:
"you musnt have fun, you must lookat the mud and pray like the rest of us"
I had a smartarsed comment for this, but it'd get removed by the ISD team, needless to say I lol'd

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Andrey Horvat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-05-12 22:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrey Horvat
It is unfortunate but not unexpected that some people in this game will fail to realise that it is at the end of the day a game. While it does not mean you should not take the game seriously, it also shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Most veterans I've met I've had a great experience with but a 50% of them follow a meta and will try to discourage new players from testing the game. Everything from ships to jobs, they will tell you that it's pointless, useless and that you should do this and only this and so on and so on. But you should not care, It's EVE, it's a sandbox game. Do whatever you want to do, and have fun doing it.

While some ways are better than others at making money and so on there is no profession or ship in EVE That is completely useless or obselete.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#36 - 2016-05-12 22:16:51 UTC
Nadja Hawk wrote:
who ever said you should mine your first weeks in eve?


Hanging out in the Minerbumping channel, we see <1 week old characters all the time mining.

Usually we relieve them of their venture then offer them a few gank Catalysts to prove that they can *already* be effective at shooting other players.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2016-05-12 22:49:01 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


I've been in RUN NPC corp for 8 years now and have traveled in Low and Null sec space numerous times. Yeah I may not be an experienced PvP'er as far as actual ship to ship combat goes but I am experienced in Stealth PvP, meaning I know how to survive while others seek.

Over the years I've gained lot's of experience and info about this game. Helpful info that I don't mind sharing with new players in NPC Corp chat. One thing I have never done is tell new players they can't do something. All I do is warn them about the dangers and offer some advice on how to survive.

The main thing I tell new players is to do the Career Agents first to get ships, skills, modules, implants, ISK, etc which gives them a good jump start into the game. If they haven't decided which career path to follow after completing the Career Agents then I advise them to do the Level 1 Sisters Of Eve Epic Arc which gives them time to train up Core Fitting Skills and make some ISK while deciding on a Career Path.

As for joining a player corp, I advise them to take their time and not be in a rush to join a corp right off the bat. I always say research the corp first, fly with them for a week or so to check them out and make sure that corp is right for them before joining.

There's lot's of other basic info that I usually give in NPC corp chat which I'm not gonna list here. Next time think twice before you make demeaning statements about Vet's who are still in NPC corps.


DMC

I recognize you as probably the most valuable contributor to the forums. I understand how knowledgeable and helpful you are. However just because there is an exception to the rule does not mean the rule does not exist.

My post was not intended to slight you in the least DMC. I was merely pointing out that if a new player is looking for good advice then finding a decent player corp would be a more reliable path for receiving decent information. Not 100% guaranteed mind you.

I just wanted to OP to understand that any information you get in this game needs to be cross checked and rookie chat info is often incorrect and NPC corp chat posts are often intentionally misleading.

So while I would recommend that any new player take the advice of you DMC and I also understand that some NPC corp chats are better than other, I still say that on average NPC corp chat is less than reliable.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2016-05-13 00:18:26 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
Cara, normally I love your insight and to the point method of posting. Here, I don't think you're being overly fair to NPC corp players and being overly general.

Thank you. I used to be much wordier but these days I have to be concise as I don't have much time to write posts during the day and it's painful on a phone!

As for being general - yes I am. You do get the occasional helpful vet in npc chat. However the vocal majority is of the type I already described and they do much more harm than those helpful players can repair.

One of the most common questions from new players in their rookie corp chats is "How can I find a corp to join?"

I have seen all of the following responses (repeatedly)

You're already in a corp (or similar non-helpful trolling)
You don't need to join player corp, they don't offer anything
Don't join a player corp, you'll get wardecced
Don't join a player corp, they're ******

Not once have I seen someone give a real response (because people who can actually answer that question typically don't stick around in rookie corp) and people who try to discuss it are usually bombarded with negativity. Put new players in that environment and they'll start to believe the lies and start parroting them as well. The ones that somehow manage to stay interested in the game are woefully ignorant of most of it's mechanics considering they've only scratched the surface of what is possible - but as the oldest characters in the chat channel their opinions are respected and repeated!

Granted some of the NPC corps are worse than others. CAS is a cesspit.

I know this may sound extreme but it makes me really irate to see the willfully ignorant have so much influence on the new player experience and their retention. The last time I made an alt and glanced at corp chat I was appalled at the terrible advice, slander, and blatant lies bandied about by the local "know-it-alls". Even scarier was seeing the newbros repeat it to each other.

It's unfortunate because there are so many really helpful vets out there that love helping newbros discover all aspects of the game and find their niche(s). But these inexperienced, mouthy noobvets get top billing and brainwash a large portion before they can escape. It's like sea turtles laying their eggs across the beach and half the baby turtles get eaten by vermin before they even reach the ocean. There's so much more out there! Just make a beeline for the tide and dive in.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Ka Plaa
Doomheim
#39 - 2016-05-13 00:36:40 UTC
The sea turtle analogy fits well with the EvE NPE.


"The Crowd Is Untruth" - Kierkegaard
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-05-13 00:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Solonius Rex
Araki Goodwill wrote:
Alright, I am gonna clarify before you all go stright for my neck... The community in Eve is special, Its friendly and helpfull, and if you need it people are willing to give you their shirts of their backs.. I can Respect that.


But there comes a time in Eve, when you as a new player want to experience ****... You want to leave your mothers arms and Explore the world or in this case New Eden. And this is where the issue comes into play..

If you stay in rookie chat for too long, your gonna get brainwashed into thinking that New eden is a Dangerous place (wich it is, dont get me wrong) And that you should just do mining in the first few weeks.. Its safe afterall so why not right? Your mother wants to keep you close and is not ready to let you go!

You see the people in this game is so tied down to their ISK that risking even a few million means crizis. And if you want to fly anything but a T1 Frigate your crazy and out of your mind... It seems that they have some crazy idea that ISK is related to IRL money.. Its not. Let me tell you this, ISK in game have NO Real money value.. AT ALL. Can you buy isk for real money? Yes. But that doesnt make ALL ISK have real money worth.. At all. And when you ask any player or friend "Do you want to try Eve?" What do you normally get as a answer? "I dont want to lose REAL MONEY" and that shows exactly how ****** up this is.. When media says **** in eve have real money value.. It scares people for even trying this game, But back to my point.

So since i started playing Eve, My goal was to fly a stratios.. I have no other goal then that.. To experience the stratios. How ever I am a bit far off of the isk goal yet. Just sitting on 240m Currently. But when i tell people "I want to fly the stratios :DD" And i am genuinly excited about that, People, and especially the vets will tell you "Are you crazy... You cant fly a Stratios, Stick to the T1 Frigate untill you can lose the stratios 5 times over." Now lets do math on this, alright.. Estimated price for a fully fitted Stratios is 400million ISK (could be more, could be a bit less) But lets say Its 400m isk.. I Would need 2 billion ISK to even get to enjoy the stratios..... So its gonna take me months before i even get to Lose my first stratios.

I havent been tied down to my ISK.. I Dont care if i lose anything in the game, ITS A GAME.. Its not impossible to get back to the stratios losing it isnt the biggest Issue. Its a game after all..
I get it tho, Flying a stratios as a newbie is maybe not the best idea.. But hey, Going into wh's as a new player wasnt the best idea either, but it paid off.


The game Eve does a good job as a mother to let their children go and explore the world... But When you talk to vets and some newer players alike, its like you are being put into a stright jacket and put in a mental hospital for saying anything but "I Want to fly the T1 Frigate"

How can you make people fall in love with a game that have such unhealthy mentality? Its a game, its not a job. Its for entertainment, not a second job. People work their ass off to fly different ships, yet they are so scared of flying it because in their mind ISK have REAL money value...

I have personally never had anyone in any other game get so pissed at me for saying I want to fly something then i have in Eve. And its the biggest ******* turnoff ever...

Honest opinion :)


Most vets aren't scared about losing isk. What they're afraid of is losing you. That is, they are afraid you're going to lose your ship in a stupid way, rage and cry about it, and quit. and thats the whole point behind "don't risk what you can't afford to lose", because experience has taught most of us that people react very VERY badly to losing ships they've put a lot of effort into acquiring

It's something we've seen a lot. People who go "wow, I just lost everything I own to a hisec ganker, this game sucks, uninstalling now". We just want to avoid that from happening.

Edit: I should clarify that this is most vets that I've met over the years, because we were never afraid of losing ships that were overly expensive.
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