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My revised take on Wardecs.

Author
TheDamned
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-05-12 17:09:06 UTC
So,
after a long winded rant about how destructive wardecs are in EVE and many of you telling me how wrong I was, I set out to launch a solo corp to wardec a number of corps for kills and learn the other side of the equation.

Result?

A. Since the buddy list changes, finding war targets is virtually impossible. Even with 5 or more large corps decced, I would rarely see a target anywhere with the exception of an occasional miner.

B. I still think there should be a limit on the number of wardecs, however, I understand that due to the buddy list change, if you ever want to score a kill, you have to go big or dont bother. Its just a waste of 50 to 200m ISK for the dec.

C. I'm too nice for solo wardeccing. I couldn't help but feel guilty about what I was doing. Maybe I'm just too carebear. I wouldn't have felt so bad had I been targeting pirate corps, but those guys travel in packs everywhere, gatecamps etc and I wouldn't stand a chance solo.

D. Overall, Wardecs are fine. Having been on the other side of them now I understand they just mean, "be careful, but don't turtle up and stop playing for a week". There are plenty of precautions you can take in defense of a wardec and its likely you will lose a ship or two but the value of those ships depend on how eager you are to lose money. If you want to continue mining, great, do so in a 26m miner instead of a 230m barge. Slows you down but its better than mining for an hour to lose the ore and a 230m ship while fueling a continued wardec.

I have learned a lot by my experience in solo wardeccing and though I dont feel its for me, I realize its not the personal, fear inducing attack on ones corp I used to.

To everyone who gave me advice before and told me a lot of this already, I apologize for my ignorance. I have to learn things for myself and am in fact always learning.

Fly safe.
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#2 - 2016-05-12 17:35:01 UTC
OP, congrats on taking it upon yourself to learn more about the sandbox rather than cry for nerfs to it.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#3 - 2016-05-12 17:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
While I agree with the removal of the watch list, I also understand the impact on merc corps that actuallu hunted, I hope that CCP as a matter of urgency brings forward the implementation of the intel structure.

This structure should give watch list capabilities at the Constellation level for the base model and go up to a region level for the top model. This gives a point of vulnerability to that intel therefore making it so it is not free.

The limit on war decs is something which is advisable, however on the other side of the coin we have people just dropping corp to avoid, war deccers suggest that this should not be allowed but at the end of the day how many hisec players will not log in and that is hardly good for Eve. The new indy structures should help, but you want a base model that offers the same functionality as the current POS in that it can be pulled down fast like a POS now, but above that you want structures that give better yield etc. that cannot. You want to have these in space and being defended.

We can all run around calling each other names and its fun on the forums for many, but the reality is that it is not great for either side.

I have never really had a war dec from anything other than the high sec blanket war dec alliances and that is kinda annoying...., but on the other side of the coin I have never felt annoyed enough with anyone to bother to declare war, such is life...

EDIT: I had to run off to do something so I could not finish this post properly, but all credit to you for trying this and posting your views, that takes courage and application, its what these forums need is players like you who do who see both sides of the issue.

I really hope that the new structures can change things around in terms of benefit and reasons to fight, but we need to get the less conflict orientated players at least giving it a go, the force multiplication of structures may help and a loose network of allied corps and players dog-piling on may also work. Some key people need to stand up and get it moving, and you look like a good bet.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Terquil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-05-12 17:59:54 UTC
Eve needs more players like you. I salute you, mr. Warbear
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#5 - 2016-05-12 18:12:30 UTC
Good man yourself,

Im legitimatly impressed you
a)took the time to try this and
d) came back here,hat in hand and apolagised.

+1 forum candy to you.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2016-05-12 18:30:55 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Good man yourself,

Im legitimatly impressed you
a)took the time to try this and
d) came back here,hat in hand and apolagised.

+1 forum candy to you.


It's a trap. It must be a trap. People like the OP (who take responsibility for their views and actually spend time examining the other side's argument) do not and cannot exist, especially here. His whole post is making me nervous, like the universe is shaking or something.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#7 - 2016-05-12 18:37:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
While I agree with the removal of the watch list, I also understand the impact on merc corps that actuallu hunted, I hope that CCP as a matter of urgency brings forward the implementation of the intel structure.

This structure should give watch list capabilities at the Constellation level for the base model and go up to a region level for the top model. This gives a point of vulnerability to that intel therefore making it so it is not free.

The limit on war decs is something which is advisable, however on the other side of the coin we have people just dropping corp to avoid, war deccers suggest that this should not be allowed but at the end of the day how many hisec players will not log in and that is hardly good for Eve. The new indy structures should help, but you want a base model that offers the same functionality as the current POS in that it can be pulled down fast like a POS now, but above that you want structures that give better yield etc. that cannot. You want to have these in space and being defended.

We can all run around calling each other names and its fun on the forums for many, but the reality is that it is not great for either side.

I have never really had a war dec from anything other than the high sec blanket war dec alliances and that is kinda annoying...., but on the other side of the coin I have never felt annoyed enough with anyone to bother to declare war, such is life...

EDIT: I had to run off to do something so I could not finish this post properly, but all credit to you for trying this and posting your views, that takes courage and application, its what these forums need is players like you who do who see both sides of the issue.

I really hope taht the new structures can change things around in terms of benefit and reasons to fight, but we need to get the less conflict orientated players at least giving it a go, the force multiplication of structures may help and a loose network of allied corps and players dog-piling on may also work. Some key people need to stand up and get it moving, and you look like a good bet.


I think the most common complaint is that people don't fight wars when decced because they do not have to, but this is a reflection of the player who declared war: the deccer has little if anything to lose, and why fight someone who has nothing to lose? (in a game, no less). Do we play "capture the flag" against an opponent who has no flag to capture? (yet your own flag is the size of a football field). If there are people who want war and want others to engage in war, then both sides need investment to protect and defend.

Were it up to me™ ....

Corporations would be divided into two types: An LLC and Corporations as we know it (Inc.)
An LLC is basically just a common channel and that's it. No hangar, no wallet, no roles, nothing but a channel and a logo. But an LLC can join an alliance and have access to the alliance channel if they want.
An LLC cannot anchor structures in space nor have a headquarters.

Now, for "skin in the game"...

Only corporations can declare war and have war declared on them. LLCs in an alliance declared war on would be part of the war. Otherwise LLCs are immune to war.
Only corporations can have infrastructure, like a Citadel or POS (as long as there are POSes).
But in order to be a corporation, you have to have infrastructure in space and if you form a corp and don't build infrastructure within a certain window, it's downgraded to an LLC.

(hence, to declare war, you have to be a corporation, and have infrastructure - "skin in the game")

If a corporation that had infrastructure and lost it, for example, in a war, or takes it down, it's downgraded to an LLC if they are unable to reestablish infrastructure within a given window. Anything in the corp wallet and/or hangars goes into "escrow" and impound and the LLC must upgrade back to a corporation to get their stuff back.

Hopefully the Citadels get to even more "meaning and worth" to make them even bigger prizes.

I can hear it now: "It's cruel to make highsec deccers require a citadel just to have wardecs!" But is it not cruel to just be able to declare war left and right and hub hump with little to lose? That 4 person carebear corp is not going to take down a citadel anyway - unless they get help. Besides, the deccers can Freeport the citadel and make ISK on the side via services.

Anyway that's my useless input to this matter that is not going to change any time soon. Admittedly we could get surprised again, like the ham-handed quick change to watch lists that damaged intel for both highsec mercs and AG.

If everybody wants "content", things are going to change. At one time there was an alliance though to have "won Eve" and it was all over, now they are getting their sh!t pushed in all over New Eden. So who knows what can happen.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#8 - 2016-05-12 18:37:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
It's a trap. It must be a trap. People like the OP (who take responsibility for their views and actually spend time examining the other side's argument) do not and cannot exist, especially here. His whole post is making me nervous, like the universe is shaking or something.
It's funny that you say that simply because this person has come back with an opinion matching your own. Plenty of people have looked at both sides of many arguments and come to an opinion that differs from yours and those players you attack and insult until they go away, because presumably since it's impossible for someone to look at both side of a situation and not come to the same conclusion as you, they are all obviously liars.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Paranoid Loyd
#9 - 2016-05-12 18:40:01 UTC
Good job Lucas I knew you would come up with some way to troll that comment and derail the thread.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#10 - 2016-05-12 18:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Good job Lucas I knew you would come up with some way to troll that comment and derail the thread.
It's not a troll, I'ts just an observation. If this guy had gone away and come back saying "I've been doing a load of wardeccing now and there's definitely balance issues" he'd have been ripped to pieces. There seem to be many people on here who think if you agree with them you are a shining example of reason, but if you don't agree with them you are mentally challenged.

Ed: and on topic, come on, we all know wardecs aren't "fine".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#11 - 2016-05-12 18:59:45 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Good job Lucas I knew you would come up with some way to troll that comment and derail the thread.


The ignore function fixes so many issues with this place it's not even funny (I knew he and others who hate war decs would reply to the op eventually). I just hope people remember to not quote the ones who do that so those of us who have used it don't end up seeing the posts anyways. I'd hope one day CCP would expand the ignore function to include quotes.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#12 - 2016-05-12 19:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Good job Lucas I knew you would come up with some way to troll that comment and derail the thread.


Lucas Kell makes reasoned arguments having been a ganker and operating on the other side in terms of operating in hisec. From my point of view there was a Troll that derailed the thread, but it was not Lucas.


Herzog, I don't agree with impounding peoples stuff and the like but for my part the intel structures offers a point of vulnerability to war dec alliances for the intel they need. Often its small changes like an intel structure giving watch list level info which is not free, that changes behaviour, I am not really keen on artifical barriers as such. I would like to see how that sort of change develops rather than for example put a limit on war dec numbers which earlier in this post I suggested as advisable.

I really think that if CCP work with the structures to create something meaningful then hisec could change to a better sandbox, people who are able to defend their stuff should get an advantage in this game, but on the other side of the coin the balance has to make sure that the small fish are not exterminated and have a means to make do with less reward.

I cannot make up my mind on whether it would be the correct thing to only allow war decs against corps/alliances that have stuff in space or own sov. I think I would like to see just how the structures pan out if CCP sets them up correctly to give meaningful benefits to those that are prepared to defend them. I think that the AG movement could develop into something deeper given the right direction for example.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
Transgress
#13 - 2016-05-12 21:28:55 UTC
Op came here and raged in a beligerant misinformed fashion and was told off (at length).

Op went ingame as per instructed to inform himself of the reality.

Op came back under the bridge where he had been roundly thrashed and gave his now informed opinion on the matter and apolagised.

Guys , we have had this tired ass discussion for months on end in numerous threads.
just pat tje guy on the back and be on yer way, hes earned it.
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#14 - 2016-05-13 04:14:01 UTC
Confirming OP has done what i've told about a thousand people to do: go try it before you knock it.
+1 like level.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#15 - 2016-05-13 05:24:57 UTC
LOL. Finding people in EVE isn't easy. If you aren't friends, and you're just trying to find somebody for the hell of it, it's the proverbial needle in a haystack. SO...our brave warriors with their RISK/REWARD mentality want a game mechanic that shows them where everybody they want to kill happens to be. HOW....EASY.

So...normal game mechanics...who cares? I'm not trying to find anyone.
War Dec? Tell me where everybody is. Looking is too HARD.

I get it.

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#16 - 2016-05-13 05:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Op came here and raged in a beligerant misinformed fashion and was told off (at length).

Op went ingame as per instructed to inform himself of the reality.

Op came back under the bridge where he had been roundly thrashed and gave his now informed opinion on the matter and apolagised.

Guys , we have had this tired ass discussion for months on end in numerous threads.
just pat tje guy on the back and be on yer way, hes earned it.


The only difference between me and others that are war decced is that I am too experienced to amble along to the trade hubs and pipes to give them an easy kill, oh what fun this is. I have in the past jumped in on a war dec as an ally and made them pay, so I have kinda decced someone, but here is the important bit, that plonker had a medium tower in Niarja something I could hit, something that forced him to defend it and he could not. So size wise I am fairly typical of the entities in hisec, small or solo, I have had blanket war decs from Hub and pipe huggers so I have the experience to comment on the other side and here is the difference between me and the OP, I did a war dec as an ally to go after an object in space and I got my fight and I blew it up, and because I was an ally I came in within 4 hours and he could not take it down.

So that makes me very very able to say what I think about this subject and why it is a joke and does nothing for most people in hisec.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Saturn Sabezan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2016-05-13 07:02:30 UTC
Lucas could start an argument in an empty room.
Jovian Death
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2016-05-13 07:31:57 UTC
B. I still think there should be a limit on the number of wardecs, however, I understand that due to the buddy list change, if you ever want to score a kill, you have to go big or dont bother. Its just a waste of 50 to 200m ISK for the dec.

Im not sure going Big is always an option to find war targets due to the buddy list changes. Good old research in locations, hunting and a big of hard work can always get kills.

However nice one OP Big smile
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#19 - 2016-05-13 07:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Having an alt in the target corp is the new watchlist.
Locator agents still work don't they?

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-05-13 09:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Geronimo McVain
Wolfhammer had it right::

By wardeccing someone you have nothing to loose. You just wait for a target.
You disrupt the gameplay of others without giving them something do do against you. If they even bother to pull together a great fleet you just dock but the wardecc goes on and on and on.

Put a structure in the home system of the deccing corp, must be in High. No active defense but a good shield so the deccers have to come out. And if it is destroyed the wardeccing corp can't decc the target for 6-8 weeks which binds corp AND player, yes no dropping of corp and just starting anew. You can change corp but if you attack such a target, even when the new corp decced them, you will get CONCORDed. This is bound to the target corp so if someone in the target corp switches corp there is no defence.

On the other hand you have a timer of 1 week for dropping corp while decced. Additional deccs don't count. If some industrial corp pays mercs for blowing up the structure that's player contend or if they do themself. If you defend it it's player contend.
To keep it fair the deccing corp can set a daily time frame in which the structure is vulnerable but that's also the frame in which they can attack the decced corp. Jep, no AUTZ timers and still ganking 24/7.

This way the decced corp can actively do something instead of just waiting for the hammer to fall. They get something that gives them incentive to fight and not just switch corp. And someone who deccs 200 corps need to worry if they band together and hunt for the structures which will cripple the deccing corp if they loose 200 targets for weeks.

When you can do something there is no reason why not to bring back some locator system. Maybe imprecise that you just see X Corp members on and active in that constellations.
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