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Perimeter Citadel Battle

Author
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-05-02 10:15:41 UTC
I really hope CCP is going to change wardec mechanics before the rollout of all structures is complete, because at this rate not many high sec structures will ever exist. Current war dec mechanics were already broken before this, but they are highly incompatible with the way structure vulnerability works.

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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#22 - 2016-05-02 10:19:36 UTC
Maybe that is ccp's plan. :/
Black Pedro
Mine.
#23 - 2016-05-02 10:24:55 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
I really hope CCP is going to change wardec mechanics before the rollout of all structures is complete, because at this rate not many high sec structures will ever exist. Current war dec mechanics were already broken before this, but they are highly incompatible with the way structure vulnerability works.

What changes to wardecs do you think CCP should make to fix this perceived "incompatibility"? How should one go about shooting a structure in highsec?

POCOs were implemented with the exact same rules regarding vulnerability to wardecs and transferability while under a war declaration. I still see POCOs on essentially every planet in highsec and while they do change hands, it is rare to see one actually reinforced. Why do you think this new batch of structures would be any different?
Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2016-05-02 10:31:33 UTC
Because of the pricetag POCOs while not cheap, are not even in the same league as Citadels.

Poco killmail...meh
5 or 10bill citadel.... that will be wanted, and thats the cheaper end of the spectrum
Black Pedro
Mine.
#25 - 2016-05-02 11:11:45 UTC
Pearl Necklace Badasaz wrote:
Because of the pricetag POCOs while not cheap, are not even in the same league as Citadels.

Poco killmail...meh
5 or 10bill citadel.... that will be wanted, and thats the cheaper end of the spectrum
:) I love the irrationality of that argument. It reveals the lack of understanding of the motivations of aggressor players by the writer, not to mention their fear of killmails and loss in general.

First, medium citadels will eventually come in at under a billion, less than a whole system of POCOs. More importantly POCOs actually provide access to a limited resource (planets) and thus there is a real reason to fight over them, while Citadels offer nothing but a useless killmail, and a small amount of materials. Players will attack citadels only for the fights, or for extortion/for hire as there isn't much direct reason to do so and a killmail doesn't pay the bills.

Once there is a medium citadel in every other system, and prices have come down to the expected level, most citadels will be safe most of the time like POCOs. The few that get attacked will generate some fights and may or may not explode. Even if they do, the medium will cost less than most mission runner's marauders or hauler's freighters, and a loss should not cripple any but the smallest and poorest group and those players should not be risking what they cannot afford to lose and just base out of a friendly or public citadel.

Perhaps also mercenaries will get a much needed boost in the form of contracts for citadel defence.

Larges and XLs are much harder to tackle. The larges will only be attackable by the largest of the groups in highsec, and the XLs only by the largest groups in the game and require a significant fleet so they will not be attacked on a whim for fights (beyond the first one or two deployed) or for killmails. Those should definitely only be deployed by groups large enough to defend them, but thankfully, aside from the market hub, there is no reason to deploy them in highsec at all.

Remember, you are 'Building Your Dream' so that someone else can 'Wreck Your Dream'. Bring on the Wrecking Machine!
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#26 - 2016-05-02 11:18:10 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
They had some ships in space which died, three Navy Domi's.

EDIT: The defences look chickenshit to me which is rather sad, what's wrong in having a challenge in this game, must everything be easy?

inaccurate, they lost 2 navy domies in transit much earlier while the citadel was still invulnerable, I have no idea what the hell that third one was doing. The defenses are absolutely non-trivial, throwing random junk at it isn't going to work out well for you, but it's no a substitute or an actual organized defense.
gnshadowninja
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-05-02 11:26:22 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
I really hope CCP is going to change wardec mechanics before the rollout of all structures is complete, because at this rate not many high sec structures will ever exist. Current war dec mechanics were already broken before this, but they are highly incompatible with the way structure vulnerability works.


Most stupid comment of 2016 award given.

War dec mechanics are only broken for us mercs who cannot hunt targets who keep jumping corp/alliancr.
Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2016-05-02 11:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Thank you for your wisdom oh exalted one.

I was by the way referring to all citadels, and if you for 1 second think people wont want a large or xl on their killmail, i guess they dont want capitals or titan killmails either do they?

From what i am reading l and xl hit for about the same as a wet noodle.... do i know that? No but i was reading stuff from the test server, IF they are correct then they will be killed for the killmail, as well as the lulz

Also if a corp takes the time and sets up a decent market center, and the L is a easy target like i am hearing then they will also be destroyed just for the tears.... if you think differently then what game have you been playing?

Now as for the mediums, if prices drop as you say then yes you most likely are correct.

If what ive been hearing is false and the L and XL do pack a punch worthy of their pricetag then again you are probably correct.

But as a whole ive heard more ppl say that all citadels are weak then i hear they are gonna be strong...so we will have to wait and see, personally i hope your right but we have no way of really knowing outside of what ppl are saying from test server and speculation.


Now that ive explained my point you can go back to explaining why im afraid of killmails and how irrational I am..


PS Im not complaining about wardecs... im complaining about weak citadels... assuming that they really are.... i want them killable, but want them to live up to their price tags when it comes to defense
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2016-05-02 11:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
The problem in highsec, is simply that the sort of stats you would need to give a citadel to allow it to survive in the hands of a small indy corp, against the indiscriminate war of the major merc alliances, would be entirely over the top..

Entirely untrue that you couldn't give them reasonable stats.
As an 'Imagine' exercise. Imagine if you could fit missile 'batteries'. These batteries aren't super deadly against one target but enough to stress even a tough local tank T3 (Combining sig & active), make marauders work, but logi can keep up, but the batteries can engage up to 5 or 10 different targets. Suddenly you have a situation where Logi are going to be sweating because of the sheer number of targets who can be engaged, and mistakes by logi all putting reps on one target while not repping a second target will cause losses.
Do the same with the Ewar mids, and again, we now have a strong force multiplier that can't simply be used to totally trash a single target, but is about disrupting multiple targets at once.

Will it be enough if you have no defending fleet against a major merc alliance? Almost certainly not. But will it be enough to significantly increase the effects of a then small co-ordinated defending fleet to stand against superior (But not overwhelming) numbers. Probably yes.

Instead what we got is an anaemic single target set up with 2 launchers, 2 neuts & 3 ewar mids max. And only enough cap to run the neuts and ewar mids for 10 minutes assuming no-one neuts the citadel at all. As a replacement for L POS death-stars & ****-stars which had far more firepower & ewar capability. Remember M Citadel = L POS. L Citadel = Outpost, in terms of what size group should be needed to operate one.

For Pearl. Citadels are weak in highsec, but get AOE weapons outside of highsec, and the XL can fit doomsdays in Null/WH, so they are strong in some cases, but super weak in highsec.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#30 - 2016-05-02 11:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Also broken in regard to citadels in that the anchoring timer is the same length as the timer for wars becoming active, making it nearly impossible for anyone to attack a citadel when it enters its first vulnerability window when it finishes anchoring.

The obvious solution would be to either increase the anchoring timer or reduce the timer for wars becoming live. Obviously carebears would totally lose their **** at the idea of either of those things, because like usual they don't really care about balance or actual gameplay considerations, they just want things.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#31 - 2016-05-02 12:22:40 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
They had some ships in space which died, three Navy Domi's.

EDIT: The defences look chickenshit to me which is rather sad, what's wrong in having a challenge in this game, must everything be easy?

inaccurate, they lost 2 navy domies in transit much earlier while the citadel was still invulnerable, I have no idea what the hell that third one was doing. The defenses are absolutely non-trivial, throwing random junk at it isn't going to work out well for you, but it's no a substitute or an actual organized defense.


Ooops did not notice that and that it ws the same character. Without even a limited market these things are just dangly bit waving exercises which will not go well if people are unable to defend them, I am hoping that people will get together and defend them, however this is hisec we are talking about. People need to form a group or coalition and just go for it, but as most people are in one man corps and he like perhaps that is not going to happen. Anyone putting up a Large will need to create a coalition to defend it. That is what I am hoping for in terms of hisec, then you might just get your content, though they must be a force leveller...

If that had been my TZ I would have contemplated going to defend it as I have a war dec by one of those groups, but the people who put it up did ot really do any preparation which will result in its loss unless they can get more support for the next timer

Black Pedro you may be right in that after a while there may be loads of them, but then again there is no real reason to put one in space. There is part of me which does want to put one up just because I can, but the other part is along the lines of what the hell benefit do I get. I am going to be given the BPC's to make one and I can easily gather, produce or buy the stuff to make one, but I can't see any real reason to do so. OK maybe I will because its an objective to have my own space station, but maybe I will just keep the BPC's and the stuff to make them until there is a limited market in the Medium...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#32 - 2016-05-02 12:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Also broken in regard to citadels in that the anchoring timer is the same length as the timer for wars becoming active, making it nearly impossible for anyone to attack a citadel when it enters its first vulnerability window when it finishes anchoring.

The obvious solution would be to either increase the anchoring timer or reduce the timer for wars becoming live. Obviously carebears would totally lose their **** at the idea of either of those things, because like usual they don't really care about balance or actual gameplay considerations, they just want things.


Incorrect, all you had to do was keep suicidng a bit of DPS every 14 minutes and 59 seconds and the repair does not start, I was surprised no one did it....

EDIT: That changed its a rolling 10% threshold so that explains why no one did it.

But do you really want such an easy kill?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#33 - 2016-05-02 12:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
In the time scale we're talking about you'd have to suicide on it over and over again for hours to "bump" the repair timer. That would be a frankly vomit inducing abuse of the mechanic and I'm not even 100% certain it would actually work (citadel mechanics are pretty fruity).

Waiting on timers sucks balls, nobody wants to sit through an extended 3 day process to achieve a result that could be achieved in one. In the case of a structure the owner can't defend the outcome is essentially predetermined, it will die and I'd personally rather kill something in 30 minutes than 3 days.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#34 - 2016-05-02 12:37:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro you may be right in that after a while there may be loads of them, but then again there is no real reason to put one in space. There is part of me which does want to put one up just because I can, but the other part is along the lines of what the hell benefit do I get. I am going to be given the BPC's to make one and I can easily gather, produce or buy the stuff to make one, but I can't see any real reason to do so. OK maybe I will because its an objective to have my own space station, but maybe I will just keep the BPC's and the stuff to make them until there is a limited market in the Medium...

Why not put one up? You probably fly ships worth as much and worst case, you get a fun fight and a battlestation to play with and can watch as it explodes. They will cost less than a PLEX or the freighters people have no problem AFKing around highsec.

The people YOLOing and putting these overpriced gank magnets right now aren't doing it for utility. They are doing it for content they will generate and the fun of playing with a new toy.

But if you have absolutely no need, then just find someone else's Citadel and help defend that. Sell your BPC and you'll have enough to wardec all the Citadel-aggressing corps. If that turns out to be fun, maybe you could form an AG corp for the express purpose of helping to defend Citadels in highsec.
gnshadowninja
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-05-02 12:39:53 UTC
Pearl Necklace Badasaz wrote:
Thank you for your wisdom oh exalted one.

I was by the way referring to all citadels, and if you for 1 second think people wont want a large or xl on their killmail, i guess they dont want capitals or titan killmails either do they?

From what i am reading l and xl hit for about the same as a wet noodle.... do i know that? No but i was reading stuff from the test server, IF they are correct then they will be killed for the killmail, as well as the lulz

Also if a corp takes the time and sets up a decent market center, and the L is a easy target like i am hearing then they will also be destroyed just for the tears.... if you think differently then what game have you been playing?

Now as for the mediums, if prices drop as you say then yes you most likely are correct.

If what ive been hearing is false and the L and XL do pack a punch worthy of their pricetag then again you are probably correct.

But as a whole ive heard more ppl say that all citadels are weak then i hear they are gonna be strong...so we will have to wait and see, personally i hope your right but we have no way of really knowing outside of what ppl are saying from test server and speculation.


Now that ive explained my point you can go back to explaining why im afraid of killmails and how irrational I am..


PS Im not complaining about wardecs... im complaining about weak citadels... assuming that they really are.... i want them killable, but want them to live up to their price tags when it comes to defense


Confused if this was meant for me as posting on different alts makes it all so confusing
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#36 - 2016-05-02 12:48:55 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Black Pedro you may be right in that after a while there may be loads of them, but then again there is no real reason to put one in space. There is part of me which does want to put one up just because I can, but the other part is along the lines of what the hell benefit do I get. I am going to be given the BPC's to make one and I can easily gather, produce or buy the stuff to make one, but I can't see any real reason to do so. OK maybe I will because its an objective to have my own space station, but maybe I will just keep the BPC's and the stuff to make them until there is a limited market in the Medium...

Why not put one up? You probably fly ships worth as much and worst case, you get a fun fight and a battlestation to play with and can watch as it explodes. They will cost less than a PLEX or the freighters people have no problem AFKing around highsec.

The people YOLOing and putting these overpriced gank magnets right now aren't doing it for utility. They are doing it for content they will generate and the fun of playing with a new toy.

But if you have absolutely no need, then just find someone else's Citadel and help defend that. Sell your BPC and you'll have enough to wardec all the Citadel-aggressing corps. If that turns out to be fun, maybe you could form an AG corp for the express purpose of helping to defend Citadels in highsec.


I may join a coalition in defending one and have already been suggesting this as something to do. But there is no point with a Medium, no benefit at all. If they are so weak then its an expensive kill mail and a waste of effort, not that I care about losing ships and all, but you want to do something logical and needed in a logical game, not put up something with no functionality that is likely to die if someone sneezes on it.

Anyway I am waiting for a Large to join in on, a Medium is wasted effort...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#37 - 2016-05-02 13:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
Dracvlad wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Also broken in regard to citadels in that the anchoring timer is the same length as the timer for wars becoming active, making it nearly impossible for anyone to attack a citadel when it enters its first vulnerability window when it finishes anchoring.

The obvious solution would be to either increase the anchoring timer or reduce the timer for wars becoming live. Obviously carebears would totally lose their **** at the idea of either of those things, because like usual they don't really care about balance or actual gameplay considerations, they just want things.


Incorrect, all you had to do was keep suicidng a bit of DPS every 14 minutes and 59 seconds and the repair does not start, I was surprised no one did it....

EDIT: That changed its a rolling 10% threshold so that explains why no one did it.

But do you really want such an easy kill?


I believe you have to sustain 10% of the maximum damage in order to keep the repair timer paused.

In other words, for an Astrahus, you need to be applying a minimum of 500 consistent dps to it.

If it detects less than 500 dps in a 20 second period, then the timer will continue.

Suiciding wont be enough to do that.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#38 - 2016-05-02 13:10:47 UTC
They aren't weak, though. They're actually pretty powerful, their EWAR is very effective, they neut a ton, are completely immune to electronic and capacitor warfare, do more dps than any sub capital ship that exists and they don't require any skills to use. The problem being experienced by this defender is that strength is relative to the threat.

When the threat is twenty guys with a coherent fleet of battleships and logistics who know what to expect. It's like sitting in space in a capital and expecting to be able to solo a twenty man subcapital fleet unsupported.

Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2016-05-02 13:11:04 UTC
It was to black pedro , not you shadowninja.... sry for the confusion
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2016-05-02 13:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
So the argument here is that a medium citadel isn't strong enough to single handedly fight off a fleet of battleships with logistics support?

Because, if so, it's an example of the kind of rotten thinking living in high sec encourages.