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WH Citadel actual defence stragety..

Author
Maker Atavuli
Atavuli Exploration Society
#1 - 2016-04-28 06:11:15 UTC
So first the general info about the target system. C3 with a static to null. The static has a max allowable mass of 2,000,000,000 . For a second forget the other possible connections as not to water down the discussion. So just glancing at a shield fit CNR I am looking at 100,000,000 (approx) in mass. Now consider damage caps on a large citadel.

"If the citadels gets shot with more DPS than the damage cap allows, additional damage will be ignored. For Astrahus citadels, this damage cap is at 5000 DPS, Fortizars can take up to 15,000 DPS and Keepstars 75,000 DPS. If you bring the maximum DPS allowed, it will take about 30 Minutes to chew through Shield, Armor and Structure." quote from HERE

Considering a Fortizar for the chosen citadel, and the hole noted above. You could jump 15 battleships in with room for support. Granted the hole would be gone but it could be done. This would allow the aggressor to burn your shields in 30 minutes entering the first timer of 24 hours. Fast forward 24 hours 30 more minutes to cook the armor and the Fortizar enters it's second 24 hour timer. At the end of this timer you can attack until the citadel is destroyed. So that is 48 hours total if they came in during the initial vulnerability window. Please correct me if I have any of the numbers screwed up.


If all of my information is correct above lets consider the attacking fleet I picked battle ships because the numbers were nice and round. You could consider 30 bombers for around the same dps but I think the citadel could do some real damage to them. People who are not really dedicated are gonna have a tough time doing an eviction even against a small corp who can field six to ten ships for a defense fleet.


Risk vs reward you would need to come in with a pretty large fleet committed to staying in hostile space for 48+ hours to make the loot fairy have an orgasm. This assumes there is only one citadel in system. If there are two you could simply manually transfer you assets to the other one when the aggressors pants are down.


Now for the vulnerability timer a Fortizar has six hours a week. With a ten man corp you could set these times as mandatory to be available for home defense. Honestly with 30 minutes of maximum DPS placing you in a timer it would be better if at least a token fleet were online during the vulnerability period.


I have not really encountered a group of 25 to 30 pilots that are organized enough to do an assault like this just for some salvage that may drop from a citadel wreck. Obviously no loot should drop from a properly defended structure since it should all have been moved or destroyed.


Also look at this from the aggressors perspective, logistics would be a nightmare. After op success when the loot fairy is laying about smoking a cigarette. Now you have to scan a way home for a pretty large fleet carrying their tear cups brimming with J-space farmer tears.

I would love to try and mount an OP to evict one of the first of these things I run across but honestly other than a sweet kill mail or taking someones hole (pun intended) I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. What are your thoughts on defending given a decent home defense fleet and or attacking one. Thanks for you opinion in advance.

I am NOT crazy they made me take my medication this morning!

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#2 - 2016-04-28 06:42:11 UTC
Something tells me a HUGE cloud of Torpedo Bombers would probably be the way to go.

Setup some strafing run bookmarks, warp-in, lock, fire once, warp-out. rinse, repeat. you can seed bomber alts into the system over time then bring in your 'main squad' when you get a handy WH connection. I'd want several approach vectors and a bunch of bounce spots scouted out.

I highly doubt the Citadel, or the defense fleet, will be able to lock up the bomber before it scurries away.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Maker Atavuli
Atavuli Exploration Society
#3 - 2016-04-28 06:55:56 UTC
Yeah I can't imagine the citadel would ever get to lock them but some of those AOE weapons seem to have bombers in mind. I really need to log into SISI and screw with a Large a bit. For an actual eviction though you are looking at a ton of time coordinating lots of pilots. Say you plan to come in after you've done due diligence scouting you have the vulnerable periods locked in. So remember this theoretical scenario uses a null sec static. Would you stage your entire fleet inside the system for the duration or do you come and go? Having lived in a null static for a year or more I don't think you could reliably hit those timers if you were trying to fly all those null gates every time. It is pretty common for the static to bounce from ORE space one day to Stain the next. I was lucky and never got evicted but man you would have to really **** someone off to go to the monumental effort of pulling one of these things down.

I am NOT crazy they made me take my medication this morning!

GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4 - 2016-04-28 07:39:35 UTC
Thats a pretty safe WH tbh, almost no one wants a c3 static null

I've found many and they are almost always completely empty.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5 - 2016-04-28 10:57:51 UTC
Just a small thing: When you damage a citadel, you get pointed by it. No warping out

Wormholer for life.

Maker Atavuli
Atavuli Exploration Society
#6 - 2016-04-28 15:02:14 UTC
GizzyBoy wrote:
Thats a pretty safe WH tbh, almost no one wants a c3 static null

I've found many and they are almost always completely empty.



They are good training for C4's in a way. You never know how long it will be before you get a direct connect to Highsec. So you have to run your logistics through other holes.


Wander Prian wrote:
Just a small thing: When you damage a citadel, you get pointed by it. No warping out


Wander Prain you bring up an interesting point, I thought the mechanic was intended to require a defender actively manning the defenses. If anyone has experience on SISI with locking a frig I would love to get some input here on record. I would guess that Citadel lock times are comparable to capitols but please note I am not a capitol pilot. The developer Blog Citadels, sieges and you v2 does however state

Citadels sieges and youv2 wrote:


Be aware that we are actively seeking to prevent types of hit and run tactics that would allow the attacker to apply damage without committing to the battlefield (we are looking at you, Stealth Bombers). If you want to attack someone’s assets, be ready to commit your fleet to it.



Are fighters able to do the same type of auto aggression that other drones like warriors or hobgoblins do ? This is where my lack of capitol experience really hurts. I have flown in plenty of ops in null that targeted caps and in some of those engagements I was in frigates or other smaller hulls. If I recall correctly getting drone or fighter agro was a swift death sentence. With the new massive grids fighters should make life hard on a frigate like a stealth bomber.

I am NOT crazy they made me take my medication this morning!

Tosawa Komarui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-04-28 19:12:14 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Something tells me a HUGE cloud of Torpedo Bombers would probably be the way to go.

Setup some strafing run bookmarks, warp-in, lock, fire once, warp-out. rinse, repeat. you can seed bomber alts into the system over time then bring in your 'main squad' when you get a handy WH connection. I'd want several approach vectors and a bunch of bounce spots scouted out.

I highly doubt the Citadel, or the defense fleet, will be able to lock up the bomber before it scurries away.


kite was my first thought as well for dealing with the citadels power but from what i understand you are scrammed for 60 seconds after shooting at a citadel
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2016-04-28 21:21:24 UTC
Tosawa Komarui wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Something tells me a HUGE cloud of Torpedo Bombers would probably be the way to go.

Setup some strafing run bookmarks, warp-in, lock, fire once, warp-out. rinse, repeat. you can seed bomber alts into the system over time then bring in your 'main squad' when you get a handy WH connection. I'd want several approach vectors and a bunch of bounce spots scouted out.

I highly doubt the Citadel, or the defense fleet, will be able to lock up the bomber before it scurries away.


kite was my first thought as well for dealing with the citadels power but from what i understand you are scrammed for 60 seconds after shooting at a citadel

at which point that dumbotron bomber idea just gets sniped if there's no support

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#9 - 2016-04-29 01:04:26 UTC
Maker Atavuli wrote:

Are fighters able to do the same type of auto aggression that other drones like warriors or hobgoblins do ? This is where my lack of capitol experience really hurts. I have flown in plenty of ops in null that targeted caps and in some of those engagements I was in frigates or other smaller hulls. If I recall correctly getting drone or fighter agro was a swift death sentence. With the new massive grids fighters should make life hard on a frigate like a stealth bomber.


No normal fighters do not. Not sure if citadel fighters are going to be any different, but my guess is no.
Johng Kahn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-04-30 14:59:13 UTC
This may be incorrect but i was told from people who tested on SiSi that the capitol sized weapons of the structures do almost no damage to sub caps right now and there for are easy to just sig tank.

Can anyone confirm this?

If so then ya. just drop a t3 fleet on it and burn it down.
Ligraph
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-04-30 19:01:12 UTC
Johng Kahn wrote:
This may be incorrect but i was told from people who tested on SiSi that the capitol sized weapons of the structures do almost no damage to sub caps right now and there for are easy to just sig tank.

Can anyone confirm this?

If so then ya. just drop a t3 fleet on it and burn it down.


Problems are the subcap weapons and the fighters.
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#12 - 2016-05-01 00:30:58 UTC
Johng Kahn wrote:
This may be incorrect but i was told from people who tested on SiSi that the capitol sized weapons of the structures do almost no damage to sub caps right now and there for are easy to just sig tank.

Can anyone confirm this?

If so then ya. just drop a t3 fleet on it and burn it down.



why would you have cap weapons on a citadel in a C3? IF, you allow someone to seed your wormhole, put up a pos, ferry in the minerals, and spend nearly two weeks building a dread before you notice and move all of your **** out...

Then you deserve to lose your citadel and your loot.