These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Shield compensation skills
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Stabmeldys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-01-09 12:07:03 UTC
Hello fellow capsuleers.

As a minmatar, I want to be flexible so training both Shield and Armor compensation skills. Armor skills I will definitely train to level 5 as EANM is shinning then. As for Shield skills I have a concern. The description says:
To active shield hardeners: 3% bonus per skill level to Shield Kinetic resistance when the modules are not active
To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per skill level to Shield Kinetic resistance.
Assuming most PvP shield fits (excluding passive drake) are either active tank or buffer with Invulnerability Field II, would it be wise to treat Shield compensation skills trained to lvl 5 as a waste?

Thanks for your input.
Regards, Stab.
Shinoe DeValo
Albidus Corvus
#2 - 2012-01-09 12:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Shinoe DeValo
yes.

the compensations do nothing to your active hardeners and since invuls also fall under these (unlike EANMs) it's not really worth taking them compesations to 5 (for PvP and active tanks).

edit: some people still say that it'll be worthwile since if you're out of cap and the hardeners turn off, you still get a 3% bonus... but if you are at this point, those 3% will probably just prolong your suffering for a second or two.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2012-01-09 12:39:41 UTC
Pretty much ignore the shield comp skills, unless you're fitting, for example, a Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II to fill an EM hole.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-01-09 13:20:18 UTC
Shinoe DeValo wrote:

edit: some people still say that it'll be worthwile since if you're out of cap and the hardeners turn off, you still get a 3% bonus... but if you are at this point, those 3% will probably just prolong your suffering for a second or two.


Which means another salvo from his autos or half cycle of remote reppers.

I need new signature.
Shinoe DeValo
Albidus Corvus
#5 - 2012-01-09 15:31:23 UTC
Mona X wrote:
Shinoe DeValo wrote:

edit: some people still say that it'll be worthwile since if you're out of cap and the hardeners turn off, you still get a 3% bonus... but if you are at this point, those 3% will probably just prolong your suffering for a second or two.


Which means another salvo from his autos or half cycle of remote reppers.


a salvo from his ACs maybe, but how do you operate your repper without cap? remember, those 3% (or 15% with compensations 5) will only count if the module is turned off. so you either deliberately turn it off to have cap for the repper, or you're out of cap and then your repper also will run dry.

but, as I said - as far as I remember, this was and is a point of debate. anyone can decide whether 4x 6.something days of training is worthwhile for such a small and... disputabel bonus
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2012-01-09 16:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Shinoe DeValo wrote:
Mona X wrote:
Shinoe DeValo wrote:

edit: some people still say that it'll be worthwile since if you're out of cap and the hardeners turn off, you still get a 3% bonus... but if you are at this point, those 3% will probably just prolong your suffering for a second or two.


Which means another salvo from his autos or half cycle of remote reppers.


a salvo from his ACs maybe, but how do you operate your repper without cap?


Remote reppers. Meaning that logistics might have time to pull you back into a fight even if you're capped out whereas they might not be able otherwise.

In general though shield comps really are more situational. Obviously the shield comp skills are key to mounting a fully passive tank -- but normally that isn't a high priority in PvP. However, deadspace amplifiers are relatively cheap, fairly easy to fit, and can help shore up a resist hole. While it's usually better to fit an invuln, at some point diminishing returns mean that a specific hardener/amplifier is a better idea. Though to be honest this is less true on (T2) Minmatar ships with their already fairly even resist profile.

So: it's pretty safe to put off training shield comps for PvP, and especially Minmatar PvP. Unlike armor comps where the opposite generally holds true, shield comps shine in PvE.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-01-09 17:45:47 UTC
Unless you rely on a passive tank, shield compensations to 3 or 4 is adequate. I'd put a higher training priority on filling resists holes like EM.
Shinoe DeValo
Albidus Corvus
#8 - 2012-01-09 21:57:50 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Shinoe DeValo wrote:
Mona X wrote:
Shinoe DeValo wrote:

edit: some people still say that it'll be worthwile since if you're out of cap and the hardeners turn off, you still get a 3% bonus... but if you are at this point, those 3% will probably just prolong your suffering for a second or two.


Which means another salvo from his autos or half cycle of remote reppers.


a salvo from his ACs maybe, but how do you operate your repper without cap?


Remote reppers.


Oops

paint me silly and call me names, that hasn't been there before! I swear!

Oops

sorry, obviously this escaped my notice. shame on me.
OldMan Gana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-01-10 15:00:27 UTC
So, if I understand this correctly, I'm at lvl4 across the board right now with shield comp skills. That's about as far as I need to go then?

Love United- Hate Glazer
Shinoe DeValo
Albidus Corvus
#10 - 2012-01-10 16:16:44 UTC
OldMan Gana wrote:
So, if I understand this correctly, I'm at lvl4 across the board right now with shield comp skills. That's about as far as I need to go then?


that depends quite a lot on what you have in mind.

for most pve purposes, yes. level 4 is sufficient for a passive fit drake to run L4 missions solo without too much worry (with all other related skills at 4/5, mind you).

I can't comment on incursions.

regarding pvp, you will have to decide yourself whether you want to stick with 12% resists on deactivted hardeners or if you think its worth training 25 days to get 15% on all resists. it may make the difference, but I stress the may.
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
#11 - 2012-01-10 18:51:36 UTC
Really depends on what you fly, I have a lot of ships with passive EM hardeners (for various reasons) so I have that one maxed and the others at 4. But unless you regularly use the passive ones, I would stop at 4 BUT it all depends.. Do You have anything else that is important to train? then do so, if you are at the point where .. meh not sure.. Might as well take it to 5 but usually there are more important skills but .. again depends a lot on what you fly and where and how.
Fozzy Dorsai
Friendly but Irritating
#12 - 2012-01-11 13:34:47 UTC
Indeed, it depends on what ships you fly and how you fit them. As a care bear who likes cap-stable fits, I tend to use shield amps a lot, so level V is in my training plan. EM is first on the list, with the others farther down. That said, I'll be getting my BS skills to V before I'm worrying about getting compensation skills up there. Note that this is in my training PLAN. I haven't done it yet, but I fly CNR, SNI, Rattler, and Tengu, all with amps and invul, and do all L4s with zero problems at all. So NEED is likely not there. But if you get to the point of looking around and not knowing what to train, you could do worse.
Bottom line, you're fine with L4, but if you have a week to spare and nothing better to train, consider LV on the EM hole.
OldMan Gana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-01-12 15:23:10 UTC
Fozzy Dorsai wrote:
Indeed, it depends on what ships you fly and how you fit them. As a care bear who likes cap-stable fits, I tend to use shield amps a lot, so level V is in my training plan. EM is first on the list, with the others farther down. That said, I'll be getting my BS skills to V before I'm worrying about getting compensation skills up there. Note that this is in my training PLAN. I haven't done it yet, but I fly CNR, SNI, Rattler, and Tengu, all with amps and invul, and do all L4s with zero problems at all. So NEED is likely not there. But if you get to the point of looking around and not knowing what to train, you could do worse.
Bottom line, you're fine with L4, but if you have a week to spare and nothing better to train, consider LV on the EM hole.



Aye, that's where I'm at, I hang out in NPC null,doing pew pew, so once I've finished up Heavy dictors 5, I'll get these comp skills up to 5, not really got an important skill that needs to be trained ASAP, so might as well :)
Cheers
Oldman

Love United- Hate Glazer
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-01-12 16:36:23 UTC
With comp skills 5 and Domination amps (<20mil) you get the best single resist per slot, even above active mods I think ... it has been a while since I crunched numbers.
Fozzy Dorsai
Friendly but Irritating
#15 - 2012-01-12 20:06:02 UTC
Lord Calus wrote:
With comp skills 5 and Domination amps (<20mil) you get the best single resist per slot, even above active mods I think ... it has been a while since I crunched numbers.

With all skills at V, Domination gives +46.875 resists, Pithum-A gives +56.375, and a T2 Field gives +55%. So it's a fully trained Pithum-A that can beat a fully trained T2 field.
Two buts:
But while Domination amp doesn't quite exceed a fully trained field, it comes pretty close, and it's 10% the price of a Pithum-A; and,
but while the Pithum-A can meet and beat the Field, you can't overload an amplifier when things go bad.
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-13 15:20:35 UTC
Fozzy Dorsai wrote:
Lord Calus wrote:
With comp skills 5 and Domination amps (<20mil) you get the best single resist per slot, even above active mods I think ... it has been a while since I crunched numbers.

With all skills at V, Domination gives +46.875 resists, Pithum-A gives +56.375, and a T2 Field gives +55%. So it's a fully trained Pithum-A that can beat a fully trained T2 field.
Two buts:
But while Domination amp doesn't quite exceed a fully trained field, it comes pretty close, and it's 10% the price of a Pithum-A; and,
but while the Pithum-A can meet and beat the Field, you can't overload an amplifier when things go bad.


Thanks for running the math. I meant OFC for the price it is best in slot. I know there are higher meta items that will out perform it, but for the marginal price increase over T2 it cant be beat for single resist passive.
Fozzy Dorsai
Friendly but Irritating
#17 - 2012-01-13 18:10:59 UTC
Lord Calus wrote:
Fozzy Dorsai wrote:
Lord Calus wrote:
With comp skills 5 and Domination amps (<20mil) you get the best single resist per slot, even above active mods I think ... it has been a while since I crunched numbers.

With all skills at V, Domination gives +46.875 resists, Pithum-A gives +56.375, and a T2 Field gives +55%. So it's a fully trained Pithum-A that can beat a fully trained T2 field.
Two buts:
But while Domination amp doesn't quite exceed a fully trained field, it comes pretty close, and it's 10% the price of a Pithum-A; and,
but while the Pithum-A can meet and beat the Field, you can't overload an amplifier when things go bad.


Thanks for running the math. I meant OFC for the price it is best in slot. I know there are higher meta items that will out perform it, but for the marginal price increase over T2 it cant be beat for single resist passive.

I completely agree. I tend to use Piths because I can, but when ISK-challenged, I did just as good with Domination...and it's a lot less painful when you notice you're in your pod.
I think the point we are both making is that amps are a viable alternative to fields in many situations.
Lord Calus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-01-13 18:14:08 UTC
Fozzy Dorsai wrote:
Lord Calus wrote:
Fozzy Dorsai wrote:
Lord Calus wrote:
With comp skills 5 and Domination amps (<20mil) you get the best single resist per slot, even above active mods I think ... it has been a while since I crunched numbers.

With all skills at V, Domination gives +46.875 resists, Pithum-A gives +56.375, and a T2 Field gives +55%. So it's a fully trained Pithum-A that can beat a fully trained T2 field.
Two buts:
But while Domination amp doesn't quite exceed a fully trained field, it comes pretty close, and it's 10% the price of a Pithum-A; and,
but while the Pithum-A can meet and beat the Field, you can't overload an amplifier when things go bad.


Thanks for running the math. I meant OFC for the price it is best in slot. I know there are higher meta items that will out perform it, but for the marginal price increase over T2 it cant be beat for single resist passive.

I completely agree. I tend to use Piths because I can, but when ISK-challenged, I did just as good with Domination...and it's a lot less painful when you notice you're in your pod.
I think the point we are both making is that amps are a viable alternative to fields in many situations.


Too true. I always tend to fit my mission boats to be as unsexy as possible so I am not a gank magnet. This doesn't totally make you gank proof, but someone will think twice about gank for profit if they see total mod cost under 50mil for your ship.
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-01-13 19:10:56 UTC
There is one other argument for training your shield skills to lvl 5 and that is if you do wormholes.

Most sleepers tend to have neuts and will drian your cap pretty fast. Having high resist through rigs and passive shields means you have a lot better survivalbility then with any active shields. Especialy Minmatar as we don't need to have any cap to fire our projectile weapons. So if you do complexes in wormholes i'd say having high shield skils is absolutely not a waste.